zill
Legend
But are you able to generate more topspin than before as a result? If so how?
Topspin One handed backhand forward swing
- Thread starter Curious
- Start date
But are you able to generate more topspin than before as a result? If so how?
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Jesus! And people blame me for getting lost in details.
I made it much more simple now, mate. Take it all the way back and swing forward. That’s it. Like Tsitsipas, like Edberg.
zill
Legend
Jesus! And people blame me for getting lost in details.
I made it much more simple now, mate. Take it all the way back and swing forward. That’s it. Like Tsitsipas, like Edberg.
Which is what I have been telling you all along.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Well, you’ve told me so many things some of which didn’t make sense. I’m tired of sifting through to find the useful ones!
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
Forget about the drop for a moment, and think of the forward swing part as a pull and release, instead of "pendulam swing".
If none of that make sense. I will leave it to you to continue with your research. You are smart enough to figure it out with your own research eventually.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Left hand release point is not when the forward swing starts. Swing starts from the top.
I think I’m done with this.
Dragy
Legend
@Morch Us @Curious
I personally gel with the following approach:
- You basically can use a pendulum-only swing and successfully pass balls over the net. It’s good enough for casual hitting and slow speeds, or mini-warmup, for example. Hence, drop may be considered as start of forward swing.
- Meanwhile, trying to accelerate past basic speed as you drop will likely cause all sorts of issues - straight pulling, inconsistency, overuse injury exposure.
- So, I like the idea of injecting power and acceleration at some point of the swing after drop. In such a model, I can both look at drop as start of U-swing avoiding pause/hitch, and only power the stroke at proper moment.
When I think drop, I try to get somewhere here before major acceleration:
That’s kind of mindset. You definitely cannot pause here, so it helps a lot to:
- not get over-muscular earlier;
- inject power already being in motion.
I personally gel with the following approach:
- You basically can use a pendulum-only swing and successfully pass balls over the net. It’s good enough for casual hitting and slow speeds, or mini-warmup, for example. Hence, drop may be considered as start of forward swing.
- Meanwhile, trying to accelerate past basic speed as you drop will likely cause all sorts of issues - straight pulling, inconsistency, overuse injury exposure.
- So, I like the idea of injecting power and acceleration at some point of the swing after drop. In such a model, I can both look at drop as start of U-swing avoiding pause/hitch, and only power the stroke at proper moment.
When I think drop, I try to get somewhere here before major acceleration:
That’s kind of mindset. You definitely cannot pause here, so it helps a lot to:
- not get over-muscular earlier;
- inject power already being in motion.
StringSnapper
Hall of Fame
i believe so. by dropping the racquet hand lower than the ball before contact theres more of the down to up motion in the swingpath
Curious
G.O.A.T.
No need to fragment the swing or think of it as two phases. Of course it will accelerate much more somewhere at the bottom of the swing. You know, cars take some time to go from 0 to 100kph. Even the fastest cannot reach that instantly.@Morch Us @Curious
I personally gel with the following approach:
- You basically can use a pendulum-only swing and successfully pass balls over the net. It’s good enough for casual hitting and slow speeds, or mini-warmup, for example. Hence, drop may be considered as start of forward swing.
- Meanwhile, trying to accelerate past basic speed as you drop will likely cause all sorts of issues - straight pulling, inconsistency, overuse injury exposure.
- So, I like the idea of injecting power and acceleration at some point of the swing after drop. In such a model, I can both look at drop as start of U-swing avoiding pause/hitch, and only power the stroke at proper moment.
When I think drop, I try to get somewhere here before major acceleration:
That’s kind of mindset. You definitely cannot pause here, so it helps a lot to:
- not get over-muscular earlier;
- inject power already being in motion.
StringSnapper
Hall of Fame
the seven steps THEY don't want you to know aboutJesus! And people blame me for getting lost in details.
I made it much more simple now, mate. Take it all the way back and swing forward. That’s it. Like Tsitsipas, like Edberg.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Compare strokes in this post one above the other and frame-by-frame. To single frame in Youtube use the period & comma keys. To select a video always use the alt key + left mouse click, otherwise the video starts playing. Compare similar racket or hand positions.
List all differences for each of your videos.
Your racket shaft is not rotated down for lowering by the off hand, see racket shaft angle to the horizontal. Racket at 1:44 of second video. Compare to Tsitsipas and Justine Henin.
Your uppermost body turns less and your shoulder joint is used more and earlier. Compare the chest pressing on the upper arm (not so easy to see the upper arm separate from the chest with the dark clothing).
Are you intending to imitate Tsitsipas?
I think that the hand should not drop close to the body but should maintain a radius out from the main rotation axis, initially located in the spine/neck area. A rotation axis has a direction and extends to infinity. The radius to the racket head is measured out from that line. For example, if the rotation axis is through the spine then draw a line through the spine going to the ground and up above the head. Draw a perpendicular line from that line to the racket head. Note - the radius out from the rotation axis does not show well from your camera angle, use camera view from behind. See pro videos with camera from behind. Later, the main rotation axis switches to the shoulder joint, draw a second rotation axis through the shoulder joint . See videos.
Compare racket head paths and orientation.
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I know exactly what the OP is talking about because I hit both Edberg style and modern style backhands. Tsitsipas is close but not the same to Edberg. He’s somewhere in between. Edberg swing path is a simple arc which used to be common during his time.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Parabola swing, mate. Don’t worry about the rest.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Spot on. I’ve watched videos of old matches since yesterday. I was really surprised that everyone had similar Bh to Edberg. Pat Cash, Lendl, Sampras, Becker, McEnroe . Take the racket all the way back with loads of coiling and unleash the parabola swing from there. Nothing complicated.
5263
G.O.A.T.
the stroke should be dragging the racket pretty direct out to near the ball before you turn the hand path to work back up and across the body for topspin.
5263
G.O.A.T.
I know many teach this and some may feel it is a teaching point that helps without being accurate, but I don't agree. I like the part where you go linearly to near contact, but video shows that the hand for best players has started to work across even before contact. This is important for understanding how to manage the RH into and thru contact. This is not just MTM or my Congruent Tennis, but was proven thru Phd. Gordon's studies and presented on video you can watch on youtube.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Camera view from in front of the Tsitsipas backhand. Shows the radius out from body rotation axis very well.
Early in the forward stoke, the uppermost body turns with spine or neck area as rotation axis. This camera view shows the radius out from the rotation axis. The resulting racket head speed is equal to the rotation rate times the radius out. Video starts at 13 sec on a backhand viewed from the front. There are others and the camera view from the side also show the radius out from another angle. Unfortunately, overhead camera views of the 1HBH are rare.
There is a stroke flaw to place the hand down close to the body. That reduces the radius.
View the backhand from behind or from the front to see how far the racket head is out from the rotation axis. That distance affects racket head speed.
Early in the forward stoke, the uppermost body turns with spine or neck area as rotation axis. This camera view shows the radius out from the rotation axis. The resulting racket head speed is equal to the rotation rate times the radius out. Video starts at 13 sec on a backhand viewed from the front. There are others and the camera view from the side also show the radius out from another angle. Unfortunately, overhead camera views of the 1HBH are rare.
There is a stroke flaw to place the hand down close to the body. That reduces the radius.
View the backhand from behind or from the front to see how far the racket head is out from the rotation axis. That distance affects racket head speed.
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Shroud
G.O.A.T.
First off i find the analysis in this thread self defeating. The one hander is a smooth stroke and a fluid motion. Breaking it down into parts is just ruining the stroke.
Specifically the idea that power comes from the drop i think is clearly wrong. The drop or more accurately the loop high take back has more to do with style and topspin than power.
But if you want to break down the 1hbh to ESSENTIAL parts, here is a much better bh to emulate, and disproves your passive drop/ no power assertion.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Great video demonstrating perfectly well what I’ve been saying! Active parabola shape forward swing that starts right from the furthest/highest point in take back.
5263
G.O.A.T.
Notice that all of his Bhs are Fades?
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
Fades??
5263
G.O.A.T.
yes, notice how all of his Bhs are bending or fading out to the right for that lefty (Muster), due to his dragging into contact.
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
Theres a 2 foot difference in the highest point. If the take back is high you cant have a forward swing from there and if like muster the takeback is low you cant have a parabola.
To pull an AshSmith, just hit the ball
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
Got it. Its like a side spin kind of. Missed the golf reference. I was thinking like light or color on a fabric and it made no sense.
5263
G.O.A.T.
There is some side spin, but it is important to realize it is a type of topspin so I call it Diagonal Topspin that gives and Fade and drop. This allows for great racket speed as well as net clearance control/trajectory control.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Here is a one hand backhand recorded from the camera viewing angle view that you want to study the downward part of the swing. The camera is high, looking down. I believe that this camera view shows all the stroke upper body sub-motions and their directions well enough that you don't miss any.
Notice how far the hand and racket head are from the rotation axes (spine & shoulder joint &?).
Love Tennis video
Federer has a different technique vs many of the top backhands in that his elbow is bent and he uses more shoulder joint and less uppermost body turn. His upper arm separates from his chest earlier than most ATP one hand backhands and Justine Henin's backhand.
This view will show you the downward and forward motions and how far out the hand and racket head are from the rotation axes (neck area and/or shoulder joint). I think that your hand would be more down, closer to the body, and result in less racket head speed.
To see this, use the same camera angle in of the Federer video on your stroke. Then find Tsitsipas videos from a similar camera angle. (Those videos will be hard to find.)
Notice how far the hand and racket head are from the rotation axes (spine & shoulder joint &?).
Federer has a different technique vs many of the top backhands in that his elbow is bent and he uses more shoulder joint and less uppermost body turn. His upper arm separates from his chest earlier than most ATP one hand backhands and Justine Henin's backhand.
This view will show you the downward and forward motions and how far out the hand and racket head are from the rotation axes (neck area and/or shoulder joint). I think that your hand would be more down, closer to the body, and result in less racket head speed.
To see this, use the same camera angle in of the Federer video on your stroke. Then find Tsitsipas videos from a similar camera angle. (Those videos will be hard to find.)
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
This slow motion GIF isolates the downward motion and the GIF ends just as the uppermost body turn is beginning. The racket is rotated down with little forward motion relative to the upper body.
Is the purpose to duplicate any current ATP player?
For the Justine Henin backhand posted earlier she has moved forward but the upper body looks similar.
Is the purpose to duplicate any current ATP player?
For the Justine Henin backhand posted earlier she has moved forward but the upper body looks similar.
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Haha yes but not as smooth as the backhand parabola for some reason. Some weird things tend to happen on the forehand, not a pure parabola, especially when the swing gets faster.
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
Then stick with it.
There is no point in trying to explain the "exact" muscle activations going on during "drop" vs "pull" vs "release". So if "a" specific thinking works for you stick with it.
You may be doing it differently than you are conveying it. But who cares.... in the end it is a "feel"... you know when it feels good.
There is no point in trying to explain the "exact" muscle activations going on during "drop" vs "pull" vs "release". So if "a" specific thinking works for you stick with it.
You may be doing it differently than you are conveying it. But who cares.... in the end it is a "feel"... you know when it feels good.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I guess that’s also true.
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
Especially since you mentioned this......... you are doing it correct I assume.
It is about terminologies...
You don't like the wording "passive drop"... instead if I say "active drop before major accelration phase", I assume you are OK.
You don't like the wording "drop then pull and release" .... instead if I say single parabolic swing, with minor relaxed acceleration, followed by major burst of acceleration followed by relaxed follow through... i assume you are good.
You don't like the term "gravity" drop... instead if I say "gravity assisted active drop as part of single parabolic swing" ... I assume you are good.
It is about terminologies...
You don't like the wording "passive drop"... instead if I say "active drop before major accelration phase", I assume you are OK.
You don't like the wording "drop then pull and release" .... instead if I say single parabolic swing, with minor relaxed acceleration, followed by major burst of acceleration followed by relaxed follow through... i assume you are good.
You don't like the term "gravity" drop... instead if I say "gravity assisted active drop as part of single parabolic swing" ... I assume you are good.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I’m sorta ok with that.
As long as it’s a single continuous swing motion starting from the top of take back, it doesn’t matter where the max acceleration happens. I gave the example of a car accelerating from 0 to 100kph and said even the fastest car can’t do that instantly. In that regard, yes you’re right, it takes time to reach maximum speed.
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
For the car, you don't directly go to 6th gear, instead you switch through gears. So different "kind" of torque/power is applied at different "phases" of acceleration for maximum benefit. You can still make this transition smooth, so that the passenger may not notice the gear changes, and only observe the speed change.
Ohh and if you are on a downward incline at the start, no harm in using the gravity to assist the movement of the car before the plain road.
Ohh and if you are on a downward incline at the start, no harm in using the gravity to assist the movement of the car before the plain road.
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Curious
G.O.A.T.
You’re right. We don’t want a jerky ride.
StringSnapper
Hall of Fame
interesting, because your forehand is the better swing right?
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I think so but the coach says “you’d be surprised but your Bh will eventually be better/more reliable than your Fh “.
5263
G.O.A.T.
yes, but if you stomp the gas too hard early out of the gates, your high performance rear end of your car will be all over the road... just like your stroke will
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
FYI
Backhands with some astonishingly bad analyses.
Backhands with some astonishingly bad analyses.
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slipgrip93
Professional
I've long given up on trying to emulate any pro for the bh, except I like Henin's topspin bh versatility although I seem to hit my 1hbh significantly different than hers on some elements. Or maybe I don't understand what she's doing on "variations" of her bh depending on the snap situations. My arm and elbow is not as straight during the swing as some of the videos posted on this thread, maybe kind of more similar to Fed's looser bh arm, but I don't seem to hit it out as front as he does either.
( my tennis history, started at 12 with lousy lessons from a local coach/teacher in the county, gave up on it soon after as other students seemed favored. Never did highschool tennis when I should have tried. Tried again at 19 during uni, just hitting rec, always schooled and humbled when coming up against 4.0's. (before all these free lessons and tips on youtube these days) Gave up again a few years later, then have been trying again since mid 30's on and off, more on recently. Always have been 1hbh throughout. Practically my favorite to swing shot, but probably not as consistent as my fh if being realistic. And I prefer my "thin" 18mm beam kps88, oldschool "manueverable" yet decent weighty feel, and partly to exercise and for attempting the full swings.)
But yes, my bh "drop" from higher is like the "active", let the gravity drop the racquet some, as start of the accelerating swing. So yes, I'm mostly going for the "feel" of the swing, and a little variation on type of brush hit to follow through whether I want more higher topspin, lower passing shot topspin, or going for flat deep. I have my own 2c opinion ideas on more details, particulars, and elements for a "good" bh swing but there seems to be debate here about details or keep it simple, so I'm just going pass on that this time.
( my tennis history, started at 12 with lousy lessons from a local coach/teacher in the county, gave up on it soon after as other students seemed favored. Never did highschool tennis when I should have tried. Tried again at 19 during uni, just hitting rec, always schooled and humbled when coming up against 4.0's. (before all these free lessons and tips on youtube these days) Gave up again a few years later, then have been trying again since mid 30's on and off, more on recently. Always have been 1hbh throughout. Practically my favorite to swing shot, but probably not as consistent as my fh if being realistic. And I prefer my "thin" 18mm beam kps88, oldschool "manueverable" yet decent weighty feel, and partly to exercise and for attempting the full swings.)
But yes, my bh "drop" from higher is like the "active", let the gravity drop the racquet some, as start of the accelerating swing. So yes, I'm mostly going for the "feel" of the swing, and a little variation on type of brush hit to follow through whether I want more higher topspin, lower passing shot topspin, or going for flat deep. I have my own 2c opinion ideas on more details, particulars, and elements for a "good" bh swing but there seems to be debate here about details or keep it simple, so I'm just going pass on that this time.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
My approach is to understand what the pros are doing using high speed video and as many observations as possible.
I don't find - confident sounding posters, instructors or researchers - creditable, unless I am able to see frames of high speed videos to back up what they say.
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Fintft
G.O.A.T.
I trust the coaches most of all, although specifically for the 1HBH, one created a yo-yo effect with mine, suggesting that I would not make contact in front (but on the same line with my feet) and with the head of the racquet pointing down- just for me to revert to the traditionla way (contact in front and racquet horizontal at it) on my own, or under the influence of another coach.
I got another coach for the last 10 years and can't complain.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Getting the hang of topspin backhand. Still doesn’t feel completely right. I’d be happy to know the issues you can spot. One thing I noticed is my swingpath is still too shallow/ flat. I somehow can’t do the nice pendulum, parabola shaped swing that I’ve been talking about in this thread. My hand just doesn’t want to go down low enough. Probably too tight arm. What do you reckon?
zill
Legend
Almost no drop. Something is very wrong.
ballmachineguy
Hall of Fame
When hitting a one hand backhand you can only swing as hard with your racquet hand what matches the effort of your non-dom hand. That is the only way to keep balanced. Feds backhand style makes him throw his non-dom hand behind him, Stan, out to the side. Yours just hangs at your side for the most part.
I know you are not from the States, but they have baseball in Australia. If you know how the Umpire gives a “safe” sign, try it with just one arm. It puts forces on the body that throw you off balance. If both arms are involved, it doesn’t. Whether slice or topspin, you need to counter what you are doing with your right arm with your left.
I know you don’t want my advice, because I don’t know anything, but that just makes it all that much more fun. ballmachineguy out!
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Smarter choice. You pointed out an obvious issue this time to avoid controversy!
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