Unintended Consequences: Honest Marketing & the Tennis Industry

[TimothyO]

Tennis Warehouse still markets the current Graphene Speed as Djoker's "Racquet of Choice" and lots of companies still try to sell new frames by painting pros' old frames like the new ones. They know that consumers like to choose frames used by their favorite pros and do everything they can to convince the average consumer (not the TT intelligentsia) that those PJs are the real deal. Already there is discussion on TT about Cilic's and Nishikori's frames and how Cilic's is definitely a PJ and Nishikori's is OOP and probably heading for a PJ at some point.

This thread is NOT about the pros and cons or ethics and morality of that business practice. That's for the pro-gear section of TT.

This thread is about the effects on manufacturers, retailers, AND consumers if PJs were NOT used and players either used original retail colors or, in the case of prostock and OOP models, used custom colors or even "generic" colors dictated by a manufacturer. (i.e. colors that looked similar to current product line graphics but which did not specifically claim to be a particular model...eg Djoker would use a custom color scheme that looked like a Graphene Speed but it wouldn't specially say Graphene Speed MP).

If manufacturers were absolutely honest about the frames used by pros and either paid pros to use generic PJs or original retail model year PJs:

- would we see fewer new models released each year?

- would the industry shrink, both in terms of number of manufacturers and retailers?

- might this be better for the consumer and in what ways? worse?

- how would such practices change THIS section of the TT forum? With fewer new models and claims of new technologies would such discussion groups fade away? Or would things stay pretty much the same?

A lot of us dislike the deception of PJ use BUT maybe deceptive PJs actually strengthen the industry with respect to consumer choices by providing more support for more manufactures and distribution channels. In other words, sans PJs, might there be so little extra churn in the business that you're left with fewer manufacturers and fewer retailers thus limited consumer choices and reduced competition (which usually means higher prices).

 

[QuadCam]

You are never going to find a pro using an off the shelf racquet.

That being said.... I think if a manufacturer is selling a "signature" racquet, it should the the same frame that the pro uses.... head shape, length, string pattern and spacing, etc. I wouldn't expect the weighting or possibly the stiffness to be the same as the real pro racquet.

What I find really wrong is what prince is doing with David Ferrer. He is playing a completely different frame, port system, and length compared to the racquet that his is painted to look like. I find that to be highly deceptive. In slight defense of Prince, they don't market the Tour 16x18 as a "david ferrer racquet."

Another one which is decpetive is how Yonex paints Kyrgios' racquet to look like the Ezone AI98 when the head shape clearly appears to VCore XI98. The XI is on its way out and they want to sell more AIs, apparently.

 

[movdqa]

Marketing works - or else companies wouldn't do it. Nike just signed a $280 million deal with a basketball player. I'm sure that Nike expects that deal to result in $2.8 billion in sales for Nike.

If we didn't have PJs, Pro Stocks and lead tape, then I suspect that there would be fewer people playing tennis. The pros play with racquets that most recreational players won't (or can't) use but a lot of recreational players like to associate their tennis with their favorite player.

It is what it is. If you want a pro racquet, they can be had for a price and a little searching. It won't make you a better player but you may feel a little better using it.

 

[15Love]

Its hard to tell how many people buy racquets just because the pros use them and buy new ones all the time because of new technology or graphics.

It would be interesting to see how racquet sales worked if racquet companies like Head continued to make classic racquets that are used under pj by the pros. People would still buy the racquet because the pro uses it but might not be tempted to buy a new racquet every two years because now it has graphene in it. In that case, they could just change the graphics of the racquet and get people to buy new ones to either keep looking like their favorite pro or just because it has a new look.

A lot of racquet sales are probably created by the deceptive advertising scheme the racquet companies use. Certain lines are only popular because people think a pro uses the racquet. The pro can supposedly use any racquet and people would buy it. So they might as well promote the actual frame they are playing with and get people to buy it.

Another option which would be great is if pro stock frames were just available to the public. They could charge high prices for them similar to the custom Speed racquet and make profits that way.

 

[movdqa]

You wouldn't really sell pro stock frames. You'd sell the pieces. The idea on pro stocks is a light hairpin as a platform. Then you spend money on all of the other stuff that goes with it. I'd rather buy pro stocks already customized than build the whole thing myself.

 

[Silent]

The tennis industry should do what the car industry does, because at least with them, I know for a fact the Ford Fusion that's on the Nascar track is the exact same that's available at the dealer.

 

[colowhisper]

I know most of us here are equipment geeks and outside the norm, but I am constantly amazed at how little most players I meet know about racquets and strings. And I am not talking just beginners and women. I meet a LOT of advanced players that hardly know what kind of strings they have in their sticks, must less about weight and balance,etc. I just think most people go to the pro shop and ask the salesmen what to buy. Then, if they ever watch tennis on TV, they see a pro playing the same brand get some semblance of satisfaction of a good purchase. Very few players yearn for pro stock frames or even know they exist. Ignorance is bliss?

 

[Silent]

I know most of us here are equipment geeks and outside the norm, but I am constantly amazed at how little most players I meet know about racquets and strings. And I am not talking just beginners and women.

I played a couple of times with a former college player, who now is a trainer for a college tennis team. He hits with them on a daily basis. Anyway, I asked him if that was a Pure Drive in his hands. His answer:"Hmm, yeah, I think so, I think it is, I'm not sure".

Then he broke his strings, I lent him a PS95. The beatdown continued, at the hands of an opponent using my own equipment...

 

[sp1derman]

I know most of us here are equipment geeks and outside the norm, but I am constantly amazed at how little most players I meet know about racquets and strings. And I am not talking just beginners and women. I meet a LOT of advanced players that hardly know what kind of strings they have in their sticks, must less about weight and balance,etc. I just think most people go to the pro shop and ask the salesmen what to buy. Then, if they ever watch tennis on TV, they see a pro playing the same brand get some semblance of satisfaction of a good purchase. Very few players yearn for pro stock frames or even know they exist. Ignorance is bliss?

Couldn't be more right. I see a lot of guys in leagues I play in that are 3.0-4.5 level that have no idea what kind of string they are using. Most have full beds of some sort of Multi. I like this because they usually end up being customers of mine! They don't know what strings they have and they sure as heck don't know anything about specs like swing weight and balance. Yes, ignorance is bliss!

 

[colowhisper]

I played a couple of times with a former college player, who now is a trainer for a college tennis team. He hits with them on a daily basis. Anyway, I asked him if that was a Pure Drive in his hands. His answer:"Hmm, yeah, I think so, I think it is, I'm not sure".

Evey wonder why you see so many Pure Drives in college? There is an elite junior program at my club. As soon any of them reach a level where they know they are going to play college they get a set of 4 Pure Drive's free. Genius marketing...

 

[MixedMaster]

If I understand correctly, Babolat and many of the other racket companies have been doing that for years! I think that's how Rodick started using Babolat. Get the young rising stars using your sticks and then you get the young public..

 

[yangster007]

There is nothing honest about tennis industry's marketing, it's all bunch of crap TBO. For instance.
1. All the technology don't do shxt to improve racquet performance
2. Polyester string's color/shape determines how it plays, not "thermal nuclear technology" or whatever supernatural material they claim to be using. That's why I find all black strings like RPM Blast, Tecnifibre Black Code, Dunlop Black Widow, Pro's Pro Blackout all play pretty much the same. But when you switch to a different color of polyester, the characteristics change dramatically.
3. Pro's never use the racquet they endorse, it's all "customized", and the tennis industry doesn't want you to know that.
4. Each racquet of the same model and year have about 5-10% difference in weight, swingweight, grip size (even if they are all same grip size as indicated, they feel slightly bigger/smaller), flex (yes !).

And I am not surprised, if companies like Luxilon/Wilson/Babolat want to keep making the business lucrative and not go brankrupt, they have to keep racquet costs around $5-$10 each, and string cost to about $0.5-$1 per set, otherwise they'll never make any money for the amount of sponsorship $ they give out. So there is no "nano technology", "Aerogel"/"Microgel", or "GT" technology in the racquet, if there is, it would be in tiny amount that it wouldn't make any difference in performance. Aerogel costs thousands of dollars a gram, do you think they'll put it in large quantity in a $200 racquet ?

 

[Praetorian]

The tennis industry should do what the car industry does, because at least with them, I know for a fact the Ford Fusion that's on the Nascar track is the exact same that's available at the dealer.

What?!!?!?

 

[TimothyO]

There is nothing honest about tennis industry's marketing, it's all bunch of crap TBO. For instance.
1. All the technology don't do shxt to improve racquet performance
2. Polyester string's color/shape determines how it plays, not "thermal nuclear technology" or whatever supernatural material they claim to be using. That's why I find all black strings like RPM Blast, Tecnifibre Black Code, Dunlop Black Widow, Pro's Pro Blackout all play pretty much the same. But when you switch to a different color of polyester, the characteristics change dramatically.
3. Pro's never use the racquet they endorse, it's all "customized", and the tennis industry doesn't want you to know that.
4. Each racquet of the same model and year have about 5-10% difference in weight, swingweight, grip size (even if they are all same grip size as indicated, they feel slightly bigger/smaller), flex (yes !).

And I am not surprised, if companies like Luxilon/Wilson/Babolat want to keep making the business lucrative and not go brankrupt, they have to keep racquet costs around $5-$10 each, and string cost to about $0.5-$1 per set, otherwise they'll never make any money for the amount of sponsorship $ they give out. So there is no "nano technology", "Aerogel"/"Microgel", or "GT" technology in the racquet, if there is, it would be in tiny amount that it wouldn't make any difference in performance. Aerogel costs thousands of dollars a gram, do you think they'll put it in large quantity in a $200 racquet ?

But tue question for this thread, which nobody has addressed, is what if the tennis industry suddenly became honest? What happens to the manufacturers, retailers, and consumers?

 

[BounceHitBounceHit]

You wouldn't really sell pro stock frames. You'd sell the pieces. The idea on pro stocks is a light hairpin as a platform. Then you spend money on all of the other stuff that goes with it. I'd rather buy pro stocks already customized than build the whole thing myself.

Do you have a source for pro-stock Wilson frames? Best, BHBH

 

[Michael Lesbowicz]

Couldn't be more right. I see a lot of guys in leagues I play in that are 3.0-4.5 level that have no idea what kind of string they are using. Most have full beds of some sort of Multi. I like this because they usually end up being customers of mine! They don't know what strings they have and they sure as heck don't know anything about specs like swing weight and balance. Yes, ignorance is bliss!

Indeed. I can verify this. Most people at my tennis club have no idea what strings
or tension they are using. They buy off-the-shelf rackets from the club's shop and use the same racket and strings for years.
One of my tennis partners has been using the same strings for five years, and thinks there is no reason to change.
Another tennis partner did not even know the brand of her racket, and had to look at it from different angles to tell me that
it is a Babolat. Most of the people at my club do not even follow professional tennis on TV. I never heard anyone talking about
pro matches.

 

[Bartelby]

The ignorance of the market place is the reason why companies want to associate products with famous faces.

 

[Muppet]

Indeed. I can verify this. Most people at my tennis club have no idea what strings
or tension they are using. They buy off-the-shelf rackets from the club's shop and use the same racket and strings for years.
One of my tennis partners has been using the same strings for five years, and thinks there is no reason to change.
Another tennis partner did not even know the brand of her racket, and had to look at it from different angles to tell me that
it is a Babolat. Most of the people at my club do not even follow professional tennis on TV. I never heard anyone talking about
pro matches.

Can't the sales personnel at a pro shop recommend a racquet that comes close enough to meeting their customer's needs? After that, the player will adjust to their equipment until they make it their own. It seems we've convinced ourselves that we can not play to our potential unless we get our hands on the racquet that meets our needs perfectly. If ignorance is bliss, we can stand to ignore much of the minutia that we obsess over. I'm as guilty of this as anyone.

 

[movdqa]

Do you have a source for pro-stock Wilson frames? Best, BHBH

Google Strings Forum. Take a look around. I can't really say much more or the post will get deleted. There are people there that can get you stuff if you make it known that you want it and can pay for it. Some of those folks hang out here too.

 

[anirut]

The ignorance of the market place is the reason why companies want to associate products with famous faces.

I like this.

 

[OTMPut]

The multitude of models, paint schemes, smart material infusions, etc are natural effect of stiff competition in a product category that is difficult to differentiate from a functional point of view.
With or without paintjobs, you will end up with something close to what you have.

What can bring some "discipline" into this overcrowded industry is entry of some generic player. Blacked out simple 100% graphite racquets, just one or two models and no fancy endorsement or marketing expenses, cheap sourcing from China and sell it online for a fifth of the current MRPs of the super-duper frames.
Perhaps a Chinese company can do this.
In any case all these frames are made in China.

 

[ARKustom93]

I like this.

And I like that Miles quote ...

 

[MikeHitsHard93]

I like this.

Yup, I agree too. 95% of the tennis community IMO doesn't have a clue about tennis technology, nor do they care. For instance, I have green strings in my prince racket and a guy I met at the courts asked if they were RPM blast...anyone here knows that RPM only comes in BLACK.

Ignorance leads to more sales. For instance, say you're a proud American buyer of goods. Let's say you have no clue that Kia's were made in Korea. If the Kia is just as appealing as a Chevy and it costs less than a Chevy, you'd probably buy the Kia, right? This isn't a great example but I think you catch my drift.

 

[Fed Kennedy]

PJs are good. Racquets evolve. They get better. Some of these techs are good. Woofers, o ports, spin grommets, cortex, they have a purpose.


Pro's use pjs because their games are honed on old frames and they don't want to switch.

If you are hellbent on pro stock, go to flea boy or buy a heavy flex frame and lead the crap out of it.

You don't like made in china, buy a yonex or a vintage head.

Above all, keep calm and play tennis

 

[burn1986]

Marketing works - or else companies wouldn't do it. Nike just signed a $280 million deal with a basketball player. I'm sure that Nike expects that deal to result in $2.8 billion in sales for Nike.

If we didn't have PJs, Pro Stocks and lead tape, then I suspect that there would be fewer people playing tennis. The pros play with racquets that most recreational players won't (or can't) use but a lot of recreational players like to associate their tennis with their favorite player.

It is what it is. If you want a pro racquet, they can be had for a price and a little searching. It won't make you a better player but you may feel a little better using it.

Well, Heads marketing research has caused them to lose a whole customer base, me included. There's a reason no top pro uses any Graphene Rad Prestige or Speed racquet. They are horrible and cheap. Customers aren't that stupid (a racquet either feels good or it doesn't, and the Graphene' do not).

Modifications to a pros racquet is expected, but there's a problem when not one of your sponsored players uses a retail mold.

I was a long time Head user (Prestige MPs) and will not use another Head racquet. Head is so out of touch with their customers that they don't deserve to sell any racquets.

Babalot, on the other hand deserves all the sales it gets because it is selling a racquet (except for the Strikes) that the customer wants, and some of their pros use the retail mold.

Head deserves to go bankrupt, to open the door for a company that doesn't have its Head up its a-- in regard to its customers!

 

[Bartelby]

Head made a misstep with Flexpoint and now, less so, with Graphene. I don't think this will send them to the wall.

 

[Fed Kennedy]

Well, Heads marketing research has caused them to lose a whole customer base, me included. There's a reason no pro uses any Graphene racquet. They are horrible and cheap. Customers aren't that stupid (a racquet either feels good or it doesn't, and the Graphene' do not).

Modifications to a pros racquet is expected, but there's a problem when not one of your sponsored players uses a retail mold.

I was a long time Head user (Prestige MPs) and will not use another Head racquet. Head is so out of touch with their customers that they don't deserve to sell any racquets.

Babalot, on the other hand deserves all the sales it gets because it is selling a racquet (except for the Strikes) that the customer wants, and some of their pros use the retail mold.

Head deserves to go bankrupt, to open the door for a company that doesn't have its Head up its a-- in regard to its customers!

I think some Head pros are using graphene

Sloane Stephens for one

 

[burn1986]

I edited to top pros. Sloane Stephens lol

 

[jmnk]

You are never going to find a pro using an off the shelf racquet.

[...]

really. you know it for a fact how exactly?

 

[Fed Kennedy]

I edited to top pros. Sloane Stephens lol

I follow you but isnt the real reason they dont use it is because its so new...pros like what they grew up with.

I mean, liquidmetal is bs but gasquet still uses an old instinct...

 

[colowhisper]

You don't like made in china, buy a yonex or a vintage head. Above all, keep calm and play tennis

Sage advice. The vintage i.prestige I picked up on the flea bay site is one of my favorite sticks in the arsenal. And the few Yonex sticks I have owned totally amaze me with quality build.

 

[MauRod]

What if tennis companies would start with selling rackets with the same mold used by the pros (for instance, speed with 98 sq/inch, Dimi's 93 frame), flex, string pattern and string distribution, but ALL with a really low weight (for. instance 290gr), so that customers could really CREATE their own rackets by choosing balance, weight, and so on ?
For instance, Head would earn money with:
1) selling the racket (Used by Djokovic!)
2) selling the grip (leather or synthetic) (Used by Djokovic!)
3) selling the lead-tape (Used by Djokovic!)
4) selling its own silicon (Used by Djokovic!)

Head would be happy to sell rackets and other stuff, customers would be happy to buy a racket used by their fav pro but with a different custom. No need to lie to people.
Is this so damned impossible to happen? Why?

 

[burn1986]

I follow you but isnt the real reason they dont use it is because its so new...pros like what they grew up with.



I mean, liquidmetal is bs but gasquet still uses an old instinct...

So no pro actually uses an AeroPro Drive or APD plus?

 

[15Love]

What if tennis companies would start with selling rackets with the same mold used by the pros (for instance, speed with 98 sq/inch, Dimi's 93 frame), flex, string pattern and string distribution, but ALL with a really low weight (for. instance 290gr), so that customers could really CREATE their own rackets by choosing balance, weight, and so on ?
For instance, Head would earn money with:
1) selling the racket (Used by Djokovic!)
2) selling the grip (leather or synthetic) (Used by Djokovic!)
3) selling the lead-tape (Used by Djokovic!)
4) selling its own silicon (Used by Djokovic!)

Head would be happy to sell rackets and other stuff, customers would be happy to buy a racket used by their fav pro but with a different custom. No need to lie to people.
Is this so damned impossible to happen? Why?

My guess is they think that as soon as everyone realizes the players who endorse all their retail racquet lines use the same racquet, they wont be able to sell the retail lines anymore. They would be swapping some expensive custom sales for a lot of cheaper retail sales. It would be interesting to see what would happen if they offered the PT57s or PT10 as a custom racquet instead of the Speed on their website. My guess is that a lot of people wouldn't buy them because it would be too expensive and would just continue to use the racquet that looks like a pro's PJ. The worst thing that could happen (if people knew about pro stocks) is that Head would have to make retail PT630s and Prestige Classics again. And they would sell because a pro endorses them.

 

[yangster007]

So no pro actually uses an AeroPro Drive or APD plus?

They do, only paintjob though. Nadal uses Aeropro Drive that's a lot heavier and higher swingweight, and I also suspect the stiffness is a bit lower because he doesn't need the power from his racquet.

 

[MauRod]

My guess is they think that as soon as everyone realizes the players who endorse all their retail racquet lines use the same racquet, they wont be able to sell the retail lines anymore. They would be swapping some expensive custom sales for a lot of cheaper retail sales. It would be interesting to see what would happen if they offered the PT57s or PT10 as a custom racquet instead of the Speed on their website. My guess is that a lot of people wouldn't buy them because it would be too expensive and would just continue to use the racquet that looks like a pro's PJ. The worst thing that could happen (if people knew about pro stocks) is that Head would have to make retail PT630s and Prestige Classics again. And they would sell because a pro endorses them.

Well, i don't think the production of a pro room/stock racket costs hundreds of bucks (i don't know it for sure of course), i think it could be the same or a little bit higher, and i don't think retail rackets are cheap (if you pay 194 euros for a retail head prestige graphene, you cannot say it's a low price). I think that people could spend their money in simple rackets and customize it in order to feel (silly and) just like the pros

 

[15Love]

Well, i don't think the production of a pro room/stock racket costs hundreds of bucks (i don't know it for sure of course), i think it could be the same or a little bit higher, and i don't think retail rackets are cheap (if you pay 194 euros for a retail head prestige graphene, you cannot say it's a low price). I think that people could spend their money in simple rackets and customize it in order to feel (silly and) just like the pros

Yeah probably not but I would expect the manufacturer would still want the same profit they get from lots of less expensive frames from a few more expensive ones.

I would pay a reasonable price for a customized racquet done by the company. It would have to be a racquet I actually want to play with, so not a Speed.

 

[Alex78]

Asked Head and learned that they will offer other molds in "custommade" soon. I think a Prestige is going to be available

 

[Ramon]

I also know the pros don't wear the same shoes. I read an interview where one of the pros mentioned that Adidas made shoes for her with extra room so she can insert her custom orthotics.

Honestly, I don't see all this as being such a bad thing. If you could order a customized racquet to your exact specs how much do you think you'd be paying for it? $1,000? $2,000? I think I'd rather pay $200 for an off-the-shelf frame and settle for my own crude home-made customization.

 

[MauRod]

I think people pay a lot for a pro-stock MAINLY because it's rare and quite difficult to find and not because of their quality (which should be higher than a retail frame for sure). So if you produce something close to a pro-stock concept but on a retail business, price should fall a lot

 

[Fuji]

I also know the pros don't wear the same shoes. I read an interview where one of the pros mentioned that Adidas made shoes for her with extra room so she can insert her custom orthotics.

Honestly, I don't see all this as being such a bad thing. If you could order a customized racquet to your exact specs how much do you think you'd be paying for it? $1,000? $2,000? I think I'd rather pay $200 for an off-the-shelf frame and settle for my own crude home-made customization.

Well angell tennis is pretty much 100% custom and costs almost identical to new retail. If you're talking about custom molds or layup or whatever, most of them already exist that I personally would be interested in, so it's just finding the right prostock and getting that.

-Fuji

 

[Silent]

What?!!?!?

Yeah I was being sarcastic.

 

[West Coast Ace]

PJs are good. Racquets evolve. They get better. Some of these techs are good. Woofers, o ports, spin grommets, cortex, they have a purpose.


Pro's use pjs because their games are honed on old frames and they don't want to switch.

If you are hellbent on pro stock, go to flea boy or buy a heavy flex frame and lead the crap out of it.

You don't like made in china, buy a yonex or a vintage head.

Above all, keep calm and play tennis

Good post. Those who say the tech doesn't improve racquets are incorrect. It does. Just in very small increments; nothing like the advances in golf clubs/balls. And like you said, the pros don't need the new tech - they have the strokes to create all the power and accuracy they need. Then add a little superstition and fear of change...

Well, Heads marketing research has caused them to lose a whole customer base...

You and the other grumps need to stop painting with such a broad brush. To say Head has completely decimated their racquet business because some of you long timers don't like the newest line is ridiculous.

 

[dr325i]

SOOOO much misinformation here...

There are pros that are using the Graphene Prestige, Radical and Speed frames. There are pros that used IG, YT, MG and every new generation technologies.

There are (TOP) pros that use APD frames, too

Yes, they do customize them, as a regular Jo that is Tsonga-wannabe cannot handle his SW and specs...

 

[Ramon]

If off-the-shelf racquets were really that bad, then one of the manufacturers would come out with truly better racquets to dominate the market and the others would have to follow to compete. That's how the free market works. That isn't happening, so apparently, the racquets you buy at the pro shop really aren't as bad as some people are making them out to be.

 

[BreakPoint]

If off-the-shelf racquets were really that bad, then one of the manufacturers would come out with truly better racquets to dominate the market and the others would have to follow to compete. That's how the free market works. That isn't happening, so apparently, the racquets you buy at the pro shop really aren't as bad as some people are making them out to be.

Yeah, but I still can't play just like Federer even though I use his racquet, so it MUST be the racquet's fault, right?

 

[GBplayer]

Yeah, but I still can't play just like Federer even though I use his racquet, so it MUST be the racquet's fault, right?

I was mostly upset because the racquet would only allow me to play like Federer. I wanted to play like Tsonga, guess I bought the wrong racquet then

 

[UCSF2012]

Real magic is in the STRINGS, not the rackets.

There are few game improvement things than a fresh set of strings. Improved directional control. Better consistency. More power that you can feel, because the strings actively rebound the ball.

 

[SFrazeur]

Counter-factual quandaries like this are a moot point as it will never happen.