Would the 25 sec shot clock be actually counterproductive?
- Thread starter zep
- Start date
ForumMember
Hall of Fame
Stupid idea. Umpires were always at discretion to enforce the rules. They always could have judged deliberate delaying and taken a call accordingly. Now how to optimally use that shot clock is also part of strategy.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Unfortunately, the players intimidated umpires into being lax with the administration of the rule.
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
The more you think about it, it becomes absolute nonsense.
ADuck
Legend
No. If this impacts how the players play their game, i'm 100% against this. The purpose of this is not to make players play quicker points, that's ludicrous. The most entertaining matches have lots of long rallies. The point of it is to stop gamesmanship, or taking too long to serve when the time obviously isn't needed. If extra rest time isn't allocated after long rallies, then this is detrimental to the sport.The time between points is there for a reason, people are cheating because it benefits their game. They will have to take more chances which leads to more skilled tennis. If you play its very easy to see, id personally like 3 mins in between points
ForumMember
Hall of Fame
Than give more power to umpires or make umpires do it consistently. Now imagine the scenario where returner dictated a long rally and made server run around for long in relatively hot conditions and then server has to make next serve quickly enough. Server will be in not best situation to make that serve. In the end we want server to do best with his service to keep it at high quality.
Pete Player
Hall of Fame
Now, that I’ve slept over it, there is timing in track and field too in the diciplines, where you are not at the same time on the starting line. I don’t really see a big difference with or without the clock, expect the towel show maybe.
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Mazz Retic
Hall of Fame
10char
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Chadillac
Guest
You think its fair for people to win the match because they violate a rule?
We disagree, long ralleys are fun to play, but gets very boring if watching. Mainly because its the same point over and over for the whole match.
Should short people be allowed to foot fault without penalty? Rules are rules, we dont interpret them, we enforce them. Something tennis hasnt done with TUE's and elastic rules. Ratings are dropping along with sponsors and television partners, most players are unwatchable
Gary Duane
G.O.A.T.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Murray's favorite: a gong sound
ADuck
Legend
Do not selectively quote, then misconstrue what I'm saying. If you think Nadal, Djokovic, Cilic are "cheating" every point they play because they're getting into long rallies, then you are a blind fanboy. I understand enforcing a 25 second rule between serves in medium and short rallies when the rest is not required. But what you're implying is that longer rallies should be cut out all together simply because you think your opinion is better than others.
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Chadillac
Guest
They are either taking less or more than 25 secs. There is no opinion, its a one or the other, no need for interpretation.
Longer ralleys are fine, playing every point that way because your allowed to violates the rule that was put in place to prevent it, isnt?
Tennis needs to define what the service start is. It needs to be the ball toss, not the actual beginning of the motion.
Djok is technically starting his motion when he bounces it 27 times on break point. Nadal has also technically started his motion because he is bouncing the ball while picking his butt, fixing hair and sniffing finger.
ADuck
Legend
No need for using our brains? K gotcha then. Lets just look at everything and say black or white.
Again, you're sadly mistaken if you think the point of a establishing a time limit between when a point finishes to when the player tosses a ball is to shorten rallies. The goal is quite the opposite actually, the goal is to have a better ratio of actual tennis to downtime. If you attempt to reduce downtime for ALL points, you're also reducing the amount of tennis overall, because rest is needed, on average, in proportion to how many shots were played in the previous point. So doing this is actually counterproductive, the ratio of tennis:downtime doesn't change because you're reducing both tennis and downtime. Now, what actually does improve the ratio is not having just a single limit for ALL points, but using good judgement on each played so that an appropriate downtime can be established for ALL points (aka good Umpire).
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Djokovic hasn't done his severe ball bouncing in years and statistics show that he has actually sped up since 2011. He was at his slowest from 2009-2010 when he was going through his service woes. Nadal is one of the slowest ever and Djokovic is nowhere near that slow. In fact, even after averaging Djokovic's slowest period on serve in his career, he is still on average faster than Nadal, Connors, Lendl, Becker, McEnroe, Courier and Wilander. It's a myth that Djokovic is one of the slowest and since 2012 he has been faster than average.
https://github.com/fivethirtyeight/data/blob/master/tennis-time/players_time.csv
ADuck
Legend
BTW, do you have any more stats like that but updated? I'd like to see ones from 2017
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
The game slowed down when the surfaces slowed down. Slower surfaces mean longer and more athletic points, which mean players are tired as hell and need more time. It's easier to take less time between the points when the point ends on 4 shots or less. On average, players take more time now than ever. It's still against the rules but there is a reason for it. I can't speak for Nadal, but Djokovic does not abuse this rule since I showed in an earlier post than he is faster than average since 2012. Actually, Murray is slower than Djokovic and has been getting slower over the years.
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Chadillac
Guest
Ya you use your brain, when the number hits 26 its a violation. Rules arent elastic.
Let me guess, balls that are slightly out should be call in if its a good point? Why even have rules if they arent going to be enforced?
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I don't have any stats from 2017 but here is the article where I found all the info from. There are a couple of links that will take you to GitHub with more detailed info.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-some-tennis-matches-take-forever/
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Chadillac
Guest
He still does it on big points and break points but got it down to 4-7 bounces on most pts. Nadal has sped up as well this year.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
He may bounce a couple of times more on big points but he still isn't doing it 17 or 18 times like he used to.
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ADuck
Legend
Because the 25 second rule is not as black and white as you claim. I've already explained why, and if you can't see reason, then there's no point continuing this conversation. You have to look into why these rules are put into place and think.
"b) Time Violation or Code Violation. A Time or Code Violation must be assessed if the ball is not struck for the next point within the twenty-five (25) seconds allowed, except if the Chair Umpire extends the time for special circumstances defined by ATP. There is no time warning prior to the expiration of the twenty-five (25) seconds.
c) A player may not receive back-to-back Time Violations because consecutive delays shall be penalized by a delay of game Code Violation, unless there has been a non-continuous game changeover." Even here in the rule book it's not as black and white as you claim it is.
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Chadillac
Guest
Didnt know its "if the ball is not struck", thanks.
Question though, grand slams are itf events where you get 25 secs. I think the atp events give you 30 secs, so defined by the atp is weird there.
Its strange, grand slams are 3/5 while atp is 2/3, yet you get less time in 3/5.
Disagree with 3, you should lose your single service if you violate. If you wanna take 40secs, you only get one serve.
ADuck
Legend
Actually you're right, this is the ATP rules not the ITF.
Here's what ITF rule book says:
"A maximum of twenty (20) seconds shall elapse from the moment the ball goes out of play at the end of the point until the time the ball is struck for the first serve of the next point. If such serve is a fault then the second serve must be struck by the server without delay."
20 seconds maximum, which they have contradicted by setting the shot clock to allow 25 seconds. So it looks like they don't even take their own rules seriously. Honestly 20 seconds is too low for a maximum time limit though. Even if you are on average below 20 seconds, you are still are going to violate that rule unless you serve at around 14 seconds on average.
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Chadillac
Guest
20 is way too low, only like 3 guys are doing that now. Someone posted a chart. 30secs max is fair, but a serve must be hit, not the motion.
Nice find on their contradiction in rule
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AllCourtHeathen
Guest
strong post to avatar pic correlation
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AllCourtHeathen
Guest
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
They are waiving the rules for the qualies at the AO, as they did at the USO, so the earliest the rule change would come into effect is probably 2020.
There is no contradiction as they are merely trialing a rule change.
There is no contradiction as they are merely trialing a rule change.
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AllCourtHeathen
Guest
The Mutant et al have opted for a style of play that is very physical and requires alot of exertion. Fine.
However, the rules of tennis should not be bent or warped just to accomodate them and their personal playing style. Doing so actually disadvantages their opponents who like to play more quickly. If the Mutant wants to grind out points, then he needs to improve his cardio to recover within the reasonable time given. Not glare, sulk, complain etc when he isn't given carte blanche to catch his breath between points.
Tennease
Legend
How can it be counterproductive ?
It will force slow players to train themselves to think quicker and to improve their flat first serving technique. Lazy players are just happy to roll their first serve in and moonballs from the baseline all day long.
Now they have to think how to finish point quickly and learn a lot of volleys and serve and volleys.
More players will learn how to hit high percentage flat ball winners. The less moonballs there are, the less wrist and elbow problems there will be. Players will learn how to hit through eastern forehand and stop relying on energy sapping, ugly looking western forehand.
It will force slow players to train themselves to think quicker and to improve their flat first serving technique. Lazy players are just happy to roll their first serve in and moonballs from the baseline all day long.
Now they have to think how to finish point quickly and learn a lot of volleys and serve and volleys.
More players will learn how to hit high percentage flat ball winners. The less moonballs there are, the less wrist and elbow problems there will be. Players will learn how to hit through eastern forehand and stop relying on energy sapping, ugly looking western forehand.
Tennease
Legend
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ADuck
Legend
If you're speaking of Nadal, don't worry, he'll be just fine. The players who have to worry are his opponents.
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AllCourtHeathen
Guest
Yep. Just has to up the EPO and he'll be right as rain.
