Was Nadal unlucky to have a precociously early grass prime/peak?
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
If you think this is an inflation era chances are you know little about tennis
RS
Bionic Poster
Would you say Nole barely won in slam matches?
Anyway does that circlar thing work anyway who knows how players could raise levels or not?
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
Err... Bluff?
abmk
Bionic Poster
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
This may be your most cogent argument yet
King_ Zeglan12
Professional
Let's say put Nadal 06-11 at Wimbledon in place of Djokovic 11-16
2011
06 Nadal vs 11 Nadal (Tossup)
2012
07 Nadal vs Federer and Murray (Nadal wins first title)
2013
08 Nadal vs Murray ( Nadal wins second title)
2014
Withdrawal
2015
10 Nadal vs 15 Federer (Nadal wins third title)
2016
11 Nadal vs 16 Murray ( Tossup )
Djokovic 11-16 in 06-11
06 Federer vs 11 Djokovic (Federer wins)
07 Federer vs 12 Djokovic (Federer wins )
08 Federer vs 13 Djokovic (Federer wins )
09 Federer vs 14 Djokovic (Federer wins )
10 Berdych vs 15 Djokovic (Djokovic wins )
13 Murray vs 18 Djokovic ( Tossup )
14 Federer vs 19 Djokovic (Federer wins )
16 Murray vs 21 Djokovic (Murray wins )
17 Federer vs 22 Djokovic (Tossup )
Now we can have a scenario in which Djokovic has one Wimbledon title and Nadal has 5
Obviously Djokovic deserves all his 7 titles but to deny his count has nothing to do with timing is just fanboy bias
2011
06 Nadal vs 11 Nadal (Tossup)
2012
07 Nadal vs Federer and Murray (Nadal wins first title)
2013
08 Nadal vs Murray ( Nadal wins second title)
2014
Withdrawal
2015
10 Nadal vs 15 Federer (Nadal wins third title)
2016
11 Nadal vs 16 Murray ( Tossup )
Djokovic 11-16 in 06-11
06 Federer vs 11 Djokovic (Federer wins)
07 Federer vs 12 Djokovic (Federer wins )
08 Federer vs 13 Djokovic (Federer wins )
09 Federer vs 14 Djokovic (Federer wins )
10 Berdych vs 15 Djokovic (Djokovic wins )
13 Murray vs 18 Djokovic ( Tossup )
14 Federer vs 19 Djokovic (Federer wins )
16 Murray vs 21 Djokovic (Murray wins )
17 Federer vs 22 Djokovic (Tossup )
Now we can have a scenario in which Djokovic has one Wimbledon title and Nadal has 5
Obviously Djokovic deserves all his 7 titles but to deny his count has nothing to do with timing is just fanboy bias
abmk
Bionic Poster
you, right now trying to defend the immense vulturing of Djokovic in inflation+asterisk era (16-22) - by far THE most pathetic/weakest period in open era
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Sigh, this is what ttw is left to. Idiotic claims of weak and inflation eras and never ending discussions of time travel tennis and prediction of hypothetical matches by posters that can’t predict a real match that is halfway through. And these same posters are so deluded they’ve convinced themselves they actually are good analysts 
The Fedfather
Legend
Except abmk is like UTS in human form, recalling matches point-by-point from the freaking 80s. If you two were to face off as far as tennis knowledge goes, pretty sure you'd have to take your words back really quickly.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal plays a claycourt game on grass (everywhere, really) and once his physicality declined he was much more vulnerable in early rounds. Yes, there is a factor of sour grapes here but his game is antithetical to how grass court tennis should be played. Pounding endless loopy topspin shots from well behind the baseline; is this clay? Even in the 2008 final, arguably his best match on the surface, he played 8.5% of his points at the net, which is exactly his career number. It's a small miracle he's accomplished as much as he has on the surface.
Regarding Djokovic at the USO, of course he a fair share of the blame with some of the massive eggs he laid in the later stages of the tournament. But I'd say he's also been a little unfortunate here. 2021, he plays a tough 5 setter in the semis against Zverev while Medvedev breezes past FAA, so he has little left in the tank for the final. Similar story in 2013, tough 5 sets vs Wawrinka while Nadal gets Gasquet. Hurricane conditions against Murray in 2012. Freak disqualification in 2020 with a depleted field. Add high heat and humidity and you have a recipe for Djokovic's woes at the USO
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duaneeo
Legend
When has TTW been anything else?
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Except that endlessly reciting obscure data points provides no advantage in predicting actual matches
abmk
Bionic Poster
Sigh, this is what ttw is left to. Idiotic claims of weak and inflation eras and never ending discussions of time travel tennis and prediction of hypothetical matches by posters that can’t predict a real match that is halfway through. And these same posters are so deluded they’ve convinced themselves they actually are good analysts
yes, ignore actual analysis and evidence of 16-current being immensely weak.
and then whine about hypotheticals to avoid the above.
rinse and repeat.
The Fedfather
Legend
You questioned his knowledge here, not the ability to predict matches.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
I questioned his ability to predict hypothetical matches and recognize weak and inflation eras
abmk
Bionic Poster
except actual data points about actual matches gives lot of advantage in actual analysis of what happened : for example 16-22 being the weakest period in open era by far (even more so post-COVID)
abmk
Bionic Poster
ah yes, because properly watching matches/getting stats in context makes my ability to recognize weak/inflation eras mediocre ...oh wait ...
dude, seriously stop making yourself look so bad.
stop denying the reality. 16-22 being the weakest period in open era by far (even more so post-COVID). This is based on analysis of what happened. no hypothetical.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Remember when a few years back you predicted Novak wouldn’t reach 12 slams and someone recently found and bumped that thread? Lucky for you that thread was deleted
I’d focus on reciting obscure data points, that seems to be your thing
abmk
Bionic Poster
lol, when did that happen?
like 2009 or something?
I never claimed to be that great at predicting matches without form being known/long term prediction by the way,
You can't deal with actual analysis.
So run around desperately like crazy with criticisms of hypotheticals/predictions to avoid admitting reality/doing actual analysis.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Did the actual data points tell you Djokovic would never reach 21?
Nevermind, Gabe just said you said he'd never reach 12. Lol.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Dude, you can’t predict anything. That’s why you resort to hypothetical matches, because you can’t be proven wrong
enjoy your time travel tennis, I’ll enjoy Novak’s 7 Wimbledons which could end up higher
abmk
Bionic Poster
Did the actual data points tell you Djokovic would never reach 21?
Nevermind, Gabe just said you said he'd never reach 12. Lol. Something tell me, you were one of the Fed
yeah, I don't recall that happening at all.
Let me also invent some fairy tale to bolster my point and avoid actual analysis of what happened. Oh wait, that's @GabeT and not me.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
You keep using these words, but they don't mean what you think they mean
Hitman
Bionic Poster
You do know that if Djokovic gets 9 Wimbledon titles, the general consensus in the bigger world that don't look at these things in the level of detail that a very small portion of people do, is that he is the greatest Wimbledon champion of all time, and as time continues to pass by, his titles will be remembered. Of course, IF Djokovic gets to 9, which he does seem to have an outside shot at.
duaneeo
Legend
I'll keep repeating that 90s-born players won zero slams during the entire decade of 2010-2019, and won just two (one by default) since 2020. That's the only data point needed to show men's tennis has been in the weakest period ever.
Garro
Rookie
Nadal faced a match point in Wimbledon 06, and was being outplayed by Youzhny in 07...then he injured his back and was never really in the match after that.
Sure, a lot of things could be different if we change circumstances, but if we're going to play the "what if" game it seems like we can better examples than this one.
What if he had lost early in 06 and 07? Doubtful he beats Fed in 08 and then goes on to in Wimby a second time after that.
Sure, a lot of things could be different if we change circumstances, but if we're going to play the "what if" game it seems like we can better examples than this one.
What if he had lost early in 06 and 07? Doubtful he beats Fed in 08 and then goes on to in Wimby a second time after that.
The Fedfather
Legend
It would be a small miracle in the 90s. After the homogenization of courts, it was par for the course that Nadal was going to do well on grass too with his amazing movement and baseline game, plus actually being good at the net when he needed to be. Nadal also used to return more aggressively on grass. Djokovic benefitted from the surfaces being slowed down so what should we call his 7 (jfc) Wimbledon titles?
Unfortunate is Federer just missing the line serving on MPs or, to a much bigger extent, Zverev injuring himself in the middle of the match. Djokovic not having the gas in the tank because in the semis he faced a tough opponent (btw, I don''t think the problem was physical in that final. Djokovic came out completely flat right from the beginning of the match and then actually picked up the pace a little in the 2nd), or him not handlling conditions better than his opponents is not unfortunate to the extent where you could say he karmically deserves to have more titles. 2020 is the one that was very unfortunate for him, yes. But again, he had his luck in 2011 so that sort of cancels out.
The Fedfather
Legend
I remember when you looked at the stats of Wimbledon 2019 final and said that Djokovic played better overall. What's you thing? Being wrong?
abmk
Bionic Poster
well, if they don't look at things in some detail, they are just casual fans. I'm not a casual fan. I give more attention to analysis/level.
while I did enjoy fed's tennis and winning in 17-early 18, never did I deny that it was a weak period, especially from 2nd half of 17 onwards.
2 generations of unimaginable weakness is an absolute travesty for tennis.
see what @duaneeo pointed out above:
90s-born players won zero slams during the entire decade of 2010-2019
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Who won that match? That’s the guy that played better
RS
Bionic Poster
I don't think I meant this but now I think of it that may come into it a bit
The Fedfather
Legend
That's the level of your analytical skills, and you deride abmk for his? Talking about knowledge and whatnot. lol
abmk
Bionic Poster
I have that guy on ignore, but amusing to see he still says nadal played claycourt tennis on grass at his prime.
Nadal returned more aggressively on grass, hit more aggressively on grass off both wings, picked off slices like probably no one else from 07 onwards on grass.
nadal had just one winner less than fed in Wim 06 final (fed did have quite a few more errors forced)
nadal had significantly higher rate of winners vs baggy in Wim 06 semi than djoko did vs baggy in Wim 11 3R.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Lol at you. If I claim I am a better player than you at tennis the way I would prove it is by beating you in the tennis court. If I lose to you me claiming that I was the better player because of “stats” would have everyone around us laughing
RS
Bionic Poster
pushed a lot where? in the threads you make?
The Fedfather
Legend
"Stats" show the details of the match, the result doesn't do that. Tennis has an unique scoring system that makes some points more significant for the result than others. But when you talk about overall level, which would include play over all points in the match, Federer was the better player. You and the imaginary everyone can laugh all you want, I'm laughing right back at you. Everyone is having fun.
RS
Bionic Poster
This might be the problem.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
The “better” player is the one who wins the match. Fed’s stats in that match reflect the great results of sets 2 and 4. But as Tsitsi pointed out you need to win 3 sets. And Fed had 3 TB opportunities and couldn’t win a single one. Better player? Don’t think so
The Fedfather
Legend
RS
Bionic Poster
Added SF for the sake of it because it's pre final but yeah I worded it a bit wrong.
A better question may have been Baggy 07 SF vs Djok 21 or something
RS
Bionic Poster
My loopy memory wtf.
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