Throwing a football and serving

Power Player

Power Player

Bionic Poster
What do you think of the theory that if you know the proper arm motion to throwing a football, then you can serve a tennis ball. If you watch QBs, they reach back and throw through the target with their finish looking the exact same as a tennis serve finish (across body, pinky side of hand facing out forwards).

The concept is to warm up by serving like you are throwing a football..just do the same motion. Then pretend you are trying to throw the ball almost straight up in the air. You will naturally drop the racquet behind your head and finish properly.

Anybody ever hear of this?
 
S

spacediver

Hall of Fame
Yes, I've heard that some pros actually warm up by tossing around footballs to each other. I've recently started warming up my serve by pitching tennis balls at the back fence. I think the mechanics are quite similar.
 
B

Bacterio

Rookie
I can't throw a football worth a damn, but I can serve pretty well. However, I was a pretty good pitcher in baseball all through little league and some high school.
 
L

larry10s

Hall of Fame
the football throw accentuates the pronation.but you dont always get a drop in a football throw. similar to a shortstop or second baseman throw in baseball. ball by the ear and throw
much different is the outfielders throw or better a pitcher trying to throw into the upper deck. this is more like serving to me.
 
P

papa

Hall of Fame
Well, it works for a very basic type serve but not good for anything above that. I really think a much better "training aid" is to use a plastic kids baseball bat because of the position most get into when throwing the bat from the baseline. I use it frequently and it does work. You have to make sure you use a fairly lightweight bat that doesn't damage the court but you can also practice it anywhere - doesn't have to be on a tennis court.
 
Power Player

Power Player

Bionic Poster
Yes, pitching would make sense also. They are all the same general motion and all have the same finish.

This could be a great way to explain to a crossover athlete how to serve. I know for me, it helps. I played baseball and football a lot as a kid.
 
SystemicAnomaly

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Throwing a football warms up muscles and joints associated with the shoulder, torso, triceps, and several other body parts. However, it does not really simulate a tennis serve. It is much more like a badminton overhead than a tennis serve.

Important elements that are missing or are much less pronounced in throwing a football are the pectoral stretch, a significant shoulder tilt, shoulder-over-shoulder rotation, racket (head) drop and a significant pronation. Except for the pronation, these elements are much less pronounced in a badminton overhead as well.
 
C

corners

Legend
Isn't there a saying, "If you can throw a football you can serve"?

I rarely threw footballs as a kid, but served daily. In my early twenties I started throwing footballs around with a few friends and could immediately chuck it better than them. But SA is probably right, above, that the mechanics are not super similar.

I heard Justine Henin throws footballs as warmup/serve training. If you look at her motion (abbreviated platform) it looks much like throwing a football.

In the NFL Michael Vick is the only QB that I know of that uses a "loop" takeback in his throwing motion. It looks like a classic loop backswing serve, like Laver or one of those guys. Very smooth.

For serve training I'd recommend a small size ball, college-size or smaller, to take the difficulty of gripping a big ball out of the equation. The PeeWee size is really nice to throw and probably has weight similar to a racquet. (Regulation NFL size is 14-15 ounces)
 
F

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
It's definitely not uncommon to use the idea of a throwing motion to help with some components of the serve. I might have someone think of throwing their racquet over the far back fence, but without letting go of the racquet. (D'oh!) That helps with directing the energy more upward than with a baseball pitch or a football toss where the throw is more flat and forward. A long bomb with a football is more up in the air though, sort of like a javelin throw.

The service motion isn't exactly the same as a throw, but lots of players that are familiar with throwing anything can usually use that idea as a reference. When I've got a student who is using too much arm with their serve, the idea of the throw can be really helpful with finding better use of the legs along with a better weight transfer forward to make better energy and a more consistent, sustainable motion.

I've also found the idea of throwing a frisbee to be really useful when working on the swing tempo for either a topspin or slice one-handed backhand.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
corners said:
Isn't there a saying, "If you can throw a football you can serve"?
But SA is probably right, above, that the mechanics are not super similar.

I heard Justine Henin throws footballs as warmup/serve training. If you look at her motion (abbreviated platform) it looks much like throwing a football.

In the NFL Michael Vick is the only QB that I know of that uses a "loop" takeback in his throwing motion. It looks like a classic loop backswing serve, like Laver or one of those guys. Very smooth.

For serve training I'd recommend a small size ball, college-size or smaller, to take the difficulty of gripping a big ball out of the equation. The PeeWee size is really nice to throw and probably has weight similar to a racquet. (Regulation NFL size is 14-15 ounces)
Click to expand...

IMO the mechanics are extremely close if you throw long or high passes, almost like a punt.

Gripping NFL ball is easier than college, unless there has been a change. College ball used to be sort of fat when I played.
 
SystemicAnomaly

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
^ Actually, the initial racket head trajectory from the drop up toward the ball is significantly greater than 45 degrees. Close to contact tho' it may be close to 45 degrees. The extreme racket head drop is part of this for tennis (but not badminton). Nothing like this in throwing a football as far as I can tell.

Sampras-Serve-new-lg.jpg


In a football throw (and badminton o'head motion), the elbow comes forward somewhat earlier in the motion than for a tennis serve. This accounts for the lack of pectoral stretch that I mentioned in my previous post. Quite a few other important diffs as I noted above as well.
 
SystemicAnomaly

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asIfwF68xqE


5263 said:
Yes, and you get more stretch/ shoulder over shoulder rock as well.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you can provide a video that show this. I don't see it in the football pases that I've witnessed . Shoulder-around-shoulder for foootball for the most part, shoulder-over-shoulder for a tennis serve. The torso rotates differently for these differences in shoulder/shoulder actions.

There is "some" pectoral stretch for a football throw. However, baseball pitching and tennis serving appear to utilize a greater stretch with a delayed release from what I've observed.
 
P

papa

Hall of Fame
5263 said:
Yes, and you get more stretch/ shoulder over shoulder rock as well.
Click to expand...

I'm certainly not a football player although I love to toss the ball around from time to time. However it seems to me that (at least in the way I throw the ball) that I don't try to keep my elbow "up" or ever get/let the two ends of the football point straight up, like on a tennis serves.

I like the "stretching and shoulder rock" part and know many players do throw footballs around.
 
Power Player

Power Player

Bionic Poster
Well to help clarify, I am adjusting my pronation on my serve and this was suggested to me as a way to do it.

You start with a normal football or pitching throwing motion while holding the racquet then keep raising the trajectory until it's at proper service height.
 
goran_ace

goran_ace

Hall of Fame
corners said:
I heard Justine Henin throws footballs as warmup/serve training. If you look at her motion (abbreviated platform) it looks much like throwing a football.
Click to expand...

Sharapova routinely throws a football to warm up her shoulder for serving practice as well and I've heard of footballs being used as training tools at different clubs and academies.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
SystemicAnomaly said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asIfwF68xqE




Perhaps you can provide a video that show this. I don't see it in the football pases that I've witnessed . Shoulder-around-shoulder for foootball for the most part, shoulder-over-shoulder for a tennis serve. The torso rotates differently for these differences in shoulder/shoulder actions.

There is "some" pectoral stretch for a football throw. However, baseball pitching and tennis serving appear to utilize a greater stretch with a delayed release from what I've observed.
Click to expand...

And that is why you have to throw long or high, as I mentioned. This adjustment in elevation is important of course, but here is a vid of a QB where you can see good pec stretch and hand back below the elbow at a point around 24 secs, even though he is not throwing high.

It is tough to find vid of players throwing high, but it does show more shoulder over shoulder with the higher release, with the torso working upwards more than outwards on a normal FB pass or baseball throw for that matter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kleiMNA4dkg&feature=related
 
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larry10s

Hall of Fame
i still beleive that a pitcher trying to throw the ball into the 3rd deck is more like a serving motion.
for what its worth pat dougherty the "serve doctor" always talks about pitching mechanics when discussing aspects of the serve.
ive not heard him refer to quaterback mechanics.
 
T1000

T1000

Legend
I was a quarterback, pitcher, and tennis player in high school and can do all three pretty well. I'm pretty sure they all use similar muscles so i don't see how they wouldn't help eachother
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
Power Player

Power Player

Bionic Poster
^^^^

Great link! That and the tennis football link prove my theory to be correct as I thought. Kind of shows me who knows the proper way to throw a football on these boards..lol. The motion is very very similar.

I think for those of you who have not played football, you probably shouldn't poo poo the idea so fast because it makes you look ill-informed.
 
jdawgg

jdawgg

Semi-Pro
I know a lot of girls that struggled with serving because its much like throwing a ball and we all know the saying "you throw like a girl". A pro, who happened to be a woman, at the club I played at would make these girls practice throwing tennis balls as a way to practice the serve. I thought it was a great idea.
 
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larry10s

Hall of Fame
Power Player said:
^^^^

Great link! That and the tennis football link prove my theory to be correct as I thought. Kind of shows me who knows the proper way to throw a football on these boards..lol. The motion is very very similar.

I think for those of you who have not played football, you probably shouldn't poo poo the idea so fast because it makes you look ill-informed.
Click to expand...

before you get too proud of yourself the tennis football link wants to sell you the tennis football. yes throwing the football aids pronation and has some usefulness but the other mechanics as mentioned by systemic anomaly are not as similar

still pitching mechanics is a closer analogy imho
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
I used to throw 70+ yards as a little kid.
Now fully grown, barely 55 yards first try, no warmups.
But maybe a pitcher can serve pretty hard.
Maybe an 3rd or short can serve pretty hard.
Maybe a seasoned rockchucker can serve pretty hard.
But all need practice in the technique of serving a tennis ball.
 
Power Player

Power Player

Bionic Poster
larry10s said:
before you get too proud of yourself the tennis football link wants to sell you the tennis football. yes throwing the football aids pronation and has some usefulness but the other mechanics as mentioned by systemic anomaly are not as similar

still pitching mechanics is a closer analogy imho
Click to expand...

I understand this. But breaking things down to the basics before refinement in my experience helps a lot.
 
r2473

r2473

G.O.A.T.
Pitching (and even just throwing) a baseball will give you a good idea of where and how you should be generating power for your serve, via the kinetic chain. Try to really "stretch" your chest.

However, just because you are able to properly generate power, doesn't mean you will be able to serve well. There is more to the serve. Like anything, it just takes a lot of practice.

I have some pitching experience. Even with that, the tennis serve was far from "easy" to learn. It still took time. But at least I had the "basics" down. That helped.

I recommend "Nick Bollettieri: Sonic Serve" Video". Done by Pat Dougharty.

It breaks everything down very well.
 
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5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
larry10s said:
yes throwing the football aids pronation and has some usefulness but the other mechanics as mentioned by systemic anomaly are not as similar
Click to expand...

As similar as what??
Interesting statement considering that good pitching coaches differ to some extent, as do top QB coaches, along with quite varied info on tennis serving.

With all the these experts giving their different take on things, which baseball theory matches up better with which tennis serving theory, better than which football theory??? Who is being quoted that has serious experience in each of these sports?

As someone with pretty extensive experience in these sports, I find throwing high footballs (sort of like a punt) the closest to really big serves (backed up by the 135+ server I developed from scratch). I think throwing pop flies is excellent as well, but find it only a close second. Pitching from a mound is useful, but not in the same league.
Everyone has their favorite drills, so to each his own.
 
Power Player

Power Player

Bionic Poster
5263, I just think a lot of people here do not know how to properly throw a football.

I just practice with a smaller nerf football and throw high. I take my time and work on throwing spirals.
 
P

papa

Hall of Fame
If your serious about learning how to serve and you don't want to spend big bucks learning how, either buy one of those plastic and foam bats at Wal-Mart (around $5.00) or go to Home Depot and get a couple of pieces of wooden closet pole cut at around 27 inches (might even be able to get some scrap). Go out into your back yard and just throw them - you'll get the entire motion very quickly. Suppose anything would work but the closet pole is a little thicker than a broom stick but anything of that type will work - try it, you might be amazed at how well it works because you'll get the drop behind your back along with driving the elbow up.
 
L

larry10s

Hall of Fame
5263 said:
As similar as what??
Interesting statement considering that good pitching coaches differ to some extent, as do top QB coaches, along with quite varied info on tennis serving.

With all the these experts giving their different take on things, which baseball theory matches up better with which tennis serving theory, better than which football theory??? Who is being quoted that has serious experience in each of these sports?

As someone with pretty extensive experience in these sports, I find throwing high footballs (sort of like a punt) the closest to really big serves (backed up by the 135+ server I developed from scratch). I think throwing pop flies is excellent as well, but find it only a close second. Pitching from a mound is useful, but not in the same league.
Everyone has their favorite drills, so to each his own.
Click to expand...

i think we can agree throwing motions are helpfull aids to learning serving mechanics.
pitching from a mound is not helpful since you are throwing on a downward angle thats why i said pithcing into the upper deck just like you said throwing the bomb(like a punt) for the quaterback. with the upward angle of the shoulders is better.
the differences lie in the early part of a quauterback vs a pitchers throw or delivery
the quauterback or an infielder in baseball uses an abbreviated serving motion meaning the ball comes up right away near the ear
the pitcher brings the ball back with the palm down much like the classic and delayed type of serves. serves that have "windups"
the use of the non throwing hand and stretch of the chest differences i cant tell you
since the minority of servers use the abbreviated motion(my impression)
and more use the windup and i would think the windup is taught to beginners more (again assumptions) the pitchers mechanics come closer to serving than a quauterbacks.(to me)
 
L

larry10s

Hall of Fame
papa said:
If your serious about learning how to serve and you don't want to spend big bucks learning how, either buy one of those plastic and foam bats at Wal-Mart (around $5.00) or go to Home Depot and get a couple of pieces of wooden closet pole cut at around 27 inches (might even be able to get some scrap). Go out into your back yard and just throw them - you'll get the entire motion very quickly. Suppose anything would work but the closet pole is a little thicker than a broom stick but anything of that type will work - try it, you might be amazed at how well it works because you'll get the drop behind your back along with driving the elbow up.
Click to expand...

papa would you say that most people who do your drill look more like baseball players or quaterbacks?
great drill and absolutely a great return on investment:)
 
Power Player

Power Player

Bionic Poster
Thanks Papa, good stuff.

Well it is funny because my motion was always a mess. When I was a junior I was serving in the 100s and acing top 25 Florida juniors . But my coaches never fixed anything. So while I was serving with great pace and winning matches, I was also using poor technique. I was literally winning matches based on talent and not much else. Of course at a certain point that caught up to me due to inconsistency.

So now I actually am going to work with a pro who said he could get me back in a lesson or 2. He saw everything I was doing wrong and broke it down. This is when it got into other sports. I played high school football and collegiate lacrosse and that is when this tip came up as something to do when not on the tennis court.

Currently I overpronate a lot and rely on my wrist way more then I should.

Larry10s, platform works well for me. I have currently a more classic service motion, but I believe the pro may change it up. He got me into using a more open stance on groundstrokes, and that improved my game after 1 lesson and me hitting balls since then. So I am buying what this guy is selling so far.
 
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larry10s

Hall of Fame
Power Player said:
Thanks Papa, good stuff.

Well it is funny because my motion was always a mess. When I was a junior I was serving in the 100s and acing top 25 Florida juniors . But my coaches never fixed anything. So while I was serving with great pace and winning matches, I was also using poor technique. I was literally winning matches based on talent and not much else. Of course at a certain point that caught up to me due to inconsistency.

So now I actually am going to work with a pro who said he could get me back in a lesson or 2. He saw everything I was doing wrong and broke it down. This is when it got into other sports. I played high school football and collegiate lacrosse and that is when this tip came up as something to do when not on the tennis court.

Currently I overpronate a lot and rely on my wrist way more then I should.

Larry10s, platform works well for me. I have currently a more classic service motion, but I believe the pro may change it up. He got me into using a more open stance on groundstrokes, and that improved my game after 1 lesson and me hitting balls since then. So I am buying what this guy is selling so far.
Click to expand...

as i said throwing a football will help but for example the reason Tebow is a "project" for the nfl is he drops his hand during his take back ie classic serving style, not straight up like they want you to.
if you practice throwing "bombs"where you hand goes down palm down and your arm goes around in a circular motion you may not make it to the nfl but you will be on your way to good serving:)

p.s. sounds like your pro is a good one. my 2 cents nothing wrong with a platform stance. sampras and fed i think would agree.
 
Power Player

Power Player

Bionic Poster
Yes, that is all I was saying in my first post.

Tebow's throwing motion is definitley horrible. But the motion you described in your last sentence is exactly what I have to drill into my service. The takeback has never been a real issue for me. I can do whatever takeback I am told is best for me.

I played a lot of football and threw a lot of balls. Never really made the correllation until it was pointed out to me though.
 
K

Ken Honecker

Rookie
I've never had more than an adequate throwing arm in softball and less in football yet back in the day I had a pretty strong serve. Sadly age has taken a toll and now it is my serve that could be rated adequate,
 
thebuffman

thebuffman

Professional
even though most of the experts on this forum have higher tennis iq's than brad gilbert, the first thing he does in this video with the bryan twins is toss the football and explain why.
 
P

papa

Hall of Fame
larry10s said:
papa would you say that most people who do your drill look more like baseball players or quaterbacks?
great drill and absolutely a great return on investment:)
Click to expand...

Well, when you throw a stick, you automatically incorporate the drop behind the back while keeping the elbow up - you really don't do either in throwing a ball. If I had to pick, I choose a football but a chunk of closet poll of a three foot piece of a small branch would be better - just try it and you'll immediately see. You can even add some weight but it really isn't necessary, just throw the stick/pole like you would throw a ball and see what happens.
 
Power Player

Power Player

Bionic Poster
Great video buffman. That's really loaded with info.

I personally think Brad gilbert has a very high tennis IQ after reading his book.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
Power Player said:
Great video buffman. That's really loaded with info.

I personally think Brad gilbert has a very high tennis IQ after reading his book.
Click to expand...

Yes, good vid. We used the serve long warm up in developing my son's 135+ serve. great drill along with the high football throw and sock drill.
 
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