Djokovic 2015-16 form the best we've ever seen?

[Mainad]

Seriously , Nole doesn't get enough credit for just how great he was during that period.
Weak era or not he was unstoppable and in some ways even better than in 2011 IMO.

Well, not quite. During 2015-16, I seem to recall he got stopped by Wawrinka (2015 RG), Murray (2015 Montreal), Vesely (2016 Monte Carlo), Murray (2016 Rome), Querrey (2016 Wimbledon), Del Potro (2016 Rio Olympics), Wawrinka (2016 US Open), Bautista Agut (2016 Shanghai), Cilic (2016 Paris-Bercy), Murray (2016 WTF).

Didn't happen very often admittedly, but it did happen.

 

[NoleFam]

From October 2014 - June 2016?....Yes it is. I think this period was better than 2011 because he had different levels he could play at during this time instead of going all out in every match, and was able to save the top gears for more difficult opponents. During this time he won 5 out of 6 majors, 2 WTFs, 10 Masters, the "Nole Slam", and the only person to stop him in a best of 5 in a major was Wawrinka. That's almost two years of domination and anybody saying weak era just cannot accept what was happening at the time.

 

[abmk]

From October 2014 - June 2016?....Yes it is. I think this period was better than 2011 because he had different levels he could play at during this time instead of going all out in every match, and was able to save the top gears for more difficult opponents. During this time he won 6 out of 7 majors, 2 WTFs, 10 Masters, the "Nole Slam", and the only person to stop him in a best of 5 in a major was Wawrinka. That's almost two years of domination and anybody saying weak era just cannot accept what was happening at the time.

5 out of 6 majors.

3 in 2015 and 2 in 2016.

---

for the record, Federer had 6 out of 7 majors from Wim 05 to AO 07.

 

[NoleFam]

5 out of 6 majors.

3 in 2015 and 2 in 2016.

---

for the record, Federer had 6 out of 7 majors from Wim 05 to AO 07.

It is 5 out of 6 so my mistake there. Yes Federer did win 6 out of 7 as well 1 WTF and 5 Masters, but this thread isn't about Federer. The OP asked was Djokovic's form during that time the best we've seen.

 

[mike danny]

The only bias around is the fedal worshippers. Djokovic 2015 - 2016 is so underrated it is criminal. That level he sustained was insane. The form started falling apart after AO 2016 but still was so good he gutted it out to win the French finally and then crashed and burned.

No, it didn't. You do know he won the Sunshine Double agaIn that year, right? Boy, everybody would wish for their form to fall apart like that

 

[mike danny]

He was basically just rolling through on momentum and the will to finally win the French. I think he knew it was his last shot. I think of he ever wins anymore majors it will be at Wimbledon. Easier innthr body. I claimed 2 more Wimbledon titles.

Djoker equaling Borg on grass?

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

From October 2014 - June 2016?....Yes it is. I think this period was better than 2011 because he had different levels he could play at during this time instead of going all out in every match, and was able to save the top gears for more difficult opponents. During this time he won 5 out of 6 majors, 2 WTFs, 10 Masters, the "Nole Slam", and the only person to stop him in a best of 5 in a major was Wawrinka. That's almost two years of domination and anybody saying weak era just cannot accept what was happening at the time.

Beijing 14 - AO 16 by form. (Corresponding to USO 04 - AO 07 by Federer.) The end of the run after AO up to RG was as much about winning by grit as it was about brilliance, which was still there but no longer consistently. (Again, kind of like Federer's 2007 after the IW-Miami canasing debacle.)

 

[abmk]

From indoors season 2014 to RG 2016 :

Djokovic was :

2014 : 17-1 (3 titles)
2015 : 82-6 (11 titles)
2016 : 44-3 (6 titles)

Total : 160-10 (94.11%)

He had in this period: 5 slams, 1 slam final, 2 YECs, 10 masters and 20 titles overall

Federer from Halle 2005 to Dubai 2007 was :

2005 : 35-1 (5 titles)
2006 : 92-5 (12 titles)
2007 : 12-0 (2 titles)

Total from Halle 2005 to Dubai 2007: 139-6 (95.86%)

He had in this period : 6 slam, 1 slam final, 1 YEC, 1 YEC final, 5 masters and 19 titles overall

If you extend 2005 backwards to include a clay court title (RG+Hamburg need to be included)

2005 : 45-2

Total from Hamburg 2005 to Dubai 2007: 150-7 (95.54%)

He had in this period : 6 slams, 1 slam final, 1 slam semi, 1 YEC, 1 YEC final, 6 masters and 20 titles overall

If you count whole of 2005 :

2005 : 81-4 (11 titles)

Total from 2005 to Dubai 2007 : 186-9 (95.38%)

He had in this period : 6 slams, 1 slam final, 2 slam semis, 1 YEC, 1 YEC final, 8 masters and 25 titles overall

If you include, 2004 from Halle onwards :

2004 : 40-2 (7 titles)

Total from Halle 2004 to Dubai 2007 : 226-11 (95.35%)

He had in this period : 8 slams, 1 slam final, 2 slam semis, 2 YECs, 1 YEC final, 8 masters and 32 titles overall


Federer considerably ahead in terms of win-loss. 63 more wins and 1 loss more.
Better best stretch at majors - 6 wins+final to 5 wins+final.

Djokovic leads him clearly in wins at Masters and 2-0 at YEC instead of 2-1 for Federer.

Make of it what you will .

Note : Made some corrections.

 

[abmk]

It is 5 out of 6 so my mistake there. Yes Federer did win 6 out of 7 as well 1 WTF and 5 Masters, but this thread isn't about Federer. The OP asked was Djokovic's form during that time the best we've seen.

actually he also stated :

" But was his form as good as anything we've ever seen in tennis?"
so , it wasn't just about Djokovic.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

On level? Kind of tough to ever argue for peak Djoker over Fed on level considering it's much closer on Djoker's best surfaces than Fed's.

Djokovic dominated Fed on HC and Nadal on clay and beat Rafa more resoundingly at Wimbledon than Fed could.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

No, it didn't. You do know he won the Sunshine Double agaIn that year, right? Boy, everybody would wish for their form to fall apart like that

It was quite clear that Djokovic's level was starting to fall. The retirement against Lopez was easy to brush off; when Novak fell two sets to one against Kukushkin, that was worrisome, but could be chalked up to half-hearted DC commitment; but him losing the first set of his Indian Wells campaign 2-6 to Bjorn Fratangelo (?!) was a real alert, even though he won the match easily afterwards. The double-fault-fest against Thiem in Miami made it clear something was wrong. So it's not all hindsight.

However, after Djokovic pulled himself together and won RG dropping only two sets, I thought he was going to get back in track and never expected him to continue spiralling, the RG improvement proving to be temporary. So what followed was surprising, for sure.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Djokovic dominated Fed on HC and Nadal on clay and beat Rafa more resoundingly at Wimbledon than Fed could.

I like your semi-subtle trolling from time to time, but the last point is just patently false, seeing as Nadal actually breadsticked Djokovic despite losing, whereas Federer was a tiebreak away from a straight set win and then won the fourth set easily.

 

[abmk]

Djokovic dominated Fed on HC and Nadal on clay and beat Rafa more resoundingly at Wimbledon than Fed could.

Federer beat Nadal in wim 06 more convincingly. Was just a TB away from getting it done in straights.

25 games won to 16 games lost. (61%)

Djokovic had 19 games won to 14 games lost in Wimbledon 2011. (57.57%)

---

Also Djokovic was "only" 4-3 vs Federer on HC from 2015-2016. (though he did win their biggest matches)

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Federer beat Nadal in wim 06 more convincingly. Was just a TB away from getting it done in straights.

25 games won to 16 games lost. (61%)

Djokovic had 19 games won to 14 games lost in Wimbledon 2011. (57.57%)

---

Also Djokovic was "only" 4-3 vs Federer on HC from 2015-2016. (though he did win their biggest matches)

2011 Nadal>>>2006 Nadal (on grass)

 

[abmk]

2011 Nadal>>>2006 Nadal (on grass)

no, its 2011 nadal > 2006 nadal on grass (he had a 80 game serve streak coming into the final in 06)

and as far as both finals are concerned, both performances were on similar level.

Nadal hit 20 winners to 3 UEs in the 3rd set of Wimbledon 2006 final and could only take it in a TB.
He played better than he did in the 2011 final 3rd set where Djokovic was just sh*tty and lost it 1-6.

 

[metsman]

Djokovic dominated Fed on HC and Nadal on clay and beat Rafa more resoundingly at Wimbledon than Fed could.

You're not quite on @smoledman 's level yet.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

You're not quite on @smoledman 's level yet.

Look, I'm a Fed fan, BUT Djokovic was unreal in 2011!
Nadal had no answers for him on clay and Fed was bullied on HC. I've never seen anyone dominate the two greatest players in history like that!

 

[mike danny]

Look, I'm a Fed fan, BUT Djokovic was unreal in 2011!
Nadal had no answers for him on clay and Fed was bullied on HC. I've never seen anyone dominate the two greatest players in history like that!

The IW and USO matches were close. Fed wasn't bullied.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

The IW and USO matches were close. Fed wasn't bullied.

You're absolutely right that Fed was one point away from "owning" Ultron in slams in 2011.

 

[VolleyHelena]

You're absolutely right that Fed was one point away from "owning" Ultron in slams in 2011.

2 wins against 2011 Djokovic would be his biggest achievement of this decade

 

[User123]

Djokovic was much better in 2011 than in 2015-2016. I'm confident 2011 Nadal would have a better record against 2015 Djokovic than he had against the 2011 version.

 

[uscwang]

At some surfaces/tournaments Djokovic showed his best form in 2011, some in 2015 and some in 2016. It's a mixture of all three years.

Compared to other players, I think Federer in mid 00s was better, but not by much. Small margins. He dominated longer, but Djokovic's late 2014-mid 2016 was probably the most dominant period of all.

Federer is always dominatED by Nadal on clay. But Novak in 2015 and half of 2016 was beating everybody everywhere.
That is the difference.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

I find it interesting that Djokovic fans, including me, think his 2015/early 2016 form was better than 2011/early 2012. And "non fans" think the opposite. I wonder why that is?

 

[abmk]

I find it interesting that Djokovic fans, including me, think his 2015/early 2016 form was better than 2011/early 2012. And "non fans" think the opposite. I wonder why that is?

Comparing just 2011 and 2015, its fairly obvious that :

slow HC -- Djoko 2011 > djoko 2015
clay - djoko 2011 > djoko 2015
grass - djoko 15 > djoko 11
fast HC - djoko 11 > djoko 15
indoors - djoko 15 > djoko 11

3 of the 4 slams, he was better in 2011.

also , fairly obvious that competition was considerably better in 2011 than in 2015.

----including early 2012/early 2016 makes it messier. If I had to take a 18 month stretch it would be 2015-mid 2016.

If I had take level across a year, it would be 2011.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

Comparing just 2011 and 2015, its fairly obvious that :

slow HC -- Djoko 2011 > djoko 2015
clay - djoko 2011 > djoko 2015
grass - djoko 15 > djoko 11
fast HC - djoko 11 > djoko 15
indoors - djoko 15 > djoko 11

3 of the 4 slams, he was better in 2011.

also , fairly obvious that competition was considerably better in 2011 than in 2015.

fast hc is debatable

 

[Deleted member 716271]

Comparing just 2011 and 2015, its fairly obvious that :

slow HC -- Djoko 2011 > djoko 2015
clay - djoko 2011 > djoko 2015
grass - djoko 15 > djoko 11
fast HC - djoko 11 > djoko 15
indoors - djoko 15 > djoko 11

3 of the 4 slams, he was better in 2011.

also , fairly obvious that competition was considerably better in 2011 than in 2015.

----including early 2012/early 2016 makes it messier. If I had to take a 18 month stretch it would be 2015-mid 2016.

If I had take level across a year, it would be 2011.

ok fair enough.

Still think fast HC level is debatable. Keep in mind he almost got knocked out of USO in 11, 15 level wasnt impressive but whatever it was enough to get it done and mentally impressive.

 

[deacsyoga]

Comparing just 2011 and 2015, its fairly obvious that :

slow HC -- Djoko 2011 > djoko 2015
clay - djoko 2011 > djoko 2015
grass - djoko 15 > djoko 11
fast HC - djoko 11 > djoko 15
indoors - djoko 15 > djoko 11

3 of the 4 slams, he was better in 2011.

also , fairly obvious that competition was considerably better in 2011 than in 2015.

----including early 2012/early 2016 makes it messier. If I had to take a 18 month stretch it would be 2015-mid 2016.

If I had take level across a year, it would be 2011.

I dont know if he was better on clay in 2011. Both years were similar, he totally dominated clay most of the spring, but lost in 4 sets to an on fire opponent at RG. Obviously he didnt have a decent Nadal to beat in 2015, but that isnt his fault, and Nadal in 2011 was even mediocre at best on clay for his standards (largely due to Djokovic sapping his confidence starting in Indian Wells).

 

[abmk]

fast hc is debatable

Dubai 11 > Dubai 15
Canada 11 > Canada 15
cincy 11 < cincy 15
USO 11 > USO 15

 

[Deleted member 716271]

Dubai 11 > Dubai 15
Canada 11 > Canada 15
cincy 11 < cincy 15
USO 11 > USO 15

USO is the most important obviously and that is debatable imo. The final was better in 11 than 15 but he also wasnt ever really threatened in 15 whereas he almost got knocked out in 11. The 1st 2 sets vs Fed were rubbish in SF 11 (not taking away from Fed who played great and almost beat Djokovic twice that year in majors)

 

[abmk]

ok fair enough.

Still think fast HC level is debatable. Keep in mind he almost got knocked out of USO in 11, 15 level wasnt impressive but whatever it was enough to get it done and mentally impressive.

that's because Federer was just clearly better in 11.
Djoko played better in that semi than he did in the USO 15 final.

He was mentally impressive in 11 semi as well , coming from 2 sets to love down and 2 MPs down.

Just because Federer won AO 06/AO 10/AO 17 and lost in AO 05 does not mean his level was better in those AOs than in AO 05.

 

[abmk]

USO is the most important obviously and that is debatable imo. The final was better in 11 than 15 but he also wasnt ever really threatened in 15 whereas he almost got knocked out in 11. The 1st 2 sets vs Fed were rubbish in SF 11 (not taking away from Fed who played great and almost beat Djokovic twice that year in majors)

absolutely not --- nowhere near the truth.

The first set was pretty good from Djokovic.

only 2nd set was below par, but hardly anywhere near rubbish.

 

[uscwang]

By the end of 2016 FO, Novak didn't need ANY of his 8000 points from GS to be ranked #1 player in the world. That is how dominant he was.
Federer has never dominated on clay. It is not fair comparison.

In the stretch listed below
GS: Novak 5 vs. World 1
WTF: Novak 2 vs World 0
ATP 1000: Novak 10 vs World 5
And he reached 21 finals in the 22 tier 1 tournaments he played.

Novak's default result here is champion.
2014
Paris
WTF
2015
AO
IW
Miami
MC
Madrid (skipped)
Rome
FO (finalist)
WB
Canada (finalist)
Cincy (finalist)
USO
Shanghai
Paris
WTF
2016
AO
IW
Miami
MC (R2)
Madrid
Rome (finalist)
FO

 

[abmk]

I dont know if he was better on clay in 2011. Both years were similar, he totally dominated clay most of the spring, but lost in 4 sets to an on fire opponent at RG. Obviously he didnt have a decent Nadal to beat in 2015, but that isnt his fault, and Nadal in 2011 was even mediocre at best on clay for his standards (largely due to Djokovic sapping his confidence starting in Indian Wells).

Nadal was still more than good by normal standards in 2011 and better than anyone djokovic beat in 2015 on clay I think.

Also , he played quite well in his loss to Federer in RG 2011.
and just a decent match ( pretty passive) in loss to Stan in 15.

 

[deacsyoga]

Nadal was still more than good by normal standards in 2011 and better than anyone djokovic beat in 2015 on clay I think.

Also , he played quite well in his loss to Federer in RG 2011.
and just a decent match ( pretty passive) in loss to Stan in 15.

Come to think of it also Rome 2011 was probably the best clay tennis he ever played anywhere (minus maybe the semi with Murray). Totally outplaying a pretty good Nadal in straight sets in the final especialy. So yeah probably better on clay in 2011, although not by a lot IMO.

Djokovic obviously has some kind of eerie mental block when playing Stan in best of 5 matches only though. I am convinced of that by now.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

that's because Federer was just clearly better in 11.
Djoko played better in that semi than he did in the USO 15 final.

He was mentally impressive in 11 semi as well , coming from 2 sets to love down and 2 MPs down.

Just because Federer won AO 06/AO 10/AO 17 and lost in AO 05 does not mean his level was better in those AOs than in AO 05.

yeah he was better but how much? That is subjective, Djok was cruising a bit in the 15 final, where he only came to life when needed up against it. Look at the BP stats etc.

IF you dont want to call it rubbish fine, but it wasnt great at all. You would have expected a better performance considering how he crushed Nadal in the final.

Of course losing or almost losing a match doesn't mean you couldnt have played better than in a win. But The A0 05 is a confusing example, that was a clear cut great performance by both, Fed actually almost won in 4. Djok lost the 1st 2 sets in 11 SF. He also played poor in Cincy 11 leading into the open...

 

[Deleted member 716271]

Come to think of it also Rome 2011 was probably the best clay tennis he ever played anywhere (minus maybe the semi with Murray). Totally outplaying a pretty good Nadal in straight sets in the final especialy. So yeah probably better on clay in 2011, although not by a lot IMO.

That I agree, the Rome Final was his best match on clay ever although Madrid was close, but the way that plays is closer to HC

 

[Deleted member 733170]

Hard to prove, but I am sympathetic to the idea that the 18 months of dominance from 2015 to mid 2016 was the highest sustained level ever seen in tennis.

 

[abmk]

yeah he was better but how much? That is subjective, Djok was cruising a bit in the 15 final, where he only came to life when needed up against it. Look at the BP stats etc.

in the 2015 final, Federer was the one cruising in the 2nd set.
djoko was down a break in the 3rd set, broke back ...was down BP at 4 all in the 3rd set and federer missed an easy FH.

Djoko could easily have been down 2 sets to one. he was clutch as well as lucky.

you don't cruise when you are facing so many BPs.

as far as question goes, I'd say he was good enough to be able to take out djoko of 15 final, maybe in 4 tight sets.

IF you dont want to call it rubbish fine, but it wasnt great at all. You would have expected a better performance considering how he crushed Nadal in the final.

actually his semi performance was a tad better than his final performance ( he served significantly better in the semi)..he just came up vs a clearly tougher opponent in the semi.


Djoko's 1st set :

25 winners+forced errors to 12 UEs (+13)
59% first serves in
86% first serve points won
60% 2nd serve points won
no BPs faced
won 38 points

Federer's 1st set :

26 winners+forced errors to 13 UEs (+13)
62% first serves in
75% first serve points won
73% 2nd serve points won
no BPs faced
won 38 points

Federer won in TB ...9-7

https://web.archive.org/web/2011091...pen.org/en_US/scores/stats/day19/1601ss1.html

I don't know what the hell you remember, but it sure as hell was a darn good set from Djokovic, facing no BPs and barely losing in a TB to federer who was playing well. They were tied in # of points.

even the 2nd set was only slightly below par, if at all and I'm saying that because he was broken twice (he did break back once). Federer's level was clearly better in the 2nd than in the 1st.

federer was 24W+FEs to 9 UEs(+15)
djoko was 16W+FEs to 8 UEs(+8)

https://web.archive.org/web/2011091...pen.org/en_US/scores/stats/day19/1601ss2.html

Of course losing or almost losing a match doesn't mean you couldnt have played better than in a win. But The A0 05 is a confusing example, that was a clear cut great performance by both, Fed actually almost won in 4. Djok lost the 1st 2 sets in 11 SF. He also played poor in Cincy 11 leading into the open...

and it was nearly the same for Djokovic. see above.

He also played poor in Cincy 11 leading into the open...

In 2011 cincy , he won easily vs Harrision, Stepanek, won the 1st set vs berdych : 7-5, who then retired, went 3 sets vs Monfils. I'm not sure I'd call that poor.
then retired mid-way in the 2nd set vs Murray after losing the 1st set 4-6

in Cincy 15, he went 3 sets vs Goffin and nearly lost to Dolgopolov.

His form before the final in cincy 11 was better than that in 15.

the final in 15 is what puts cincy 15 over cincy 11.

also remember he won Canada in impressive fashion in 11, he lost to Murray in Canada in 15 (having nearly lost to Gulbis 2 rounds before)

 

[metsman]

USO is the most important obviously and that is debatable imo. The final was better in 11 than 15 but he also wasnt ever really threatened in 15 whereas he almost got knocked out in 11. The 1st 2 sets vs Fed were rubbish in SF 11 (not taking away from Fed who played great and almost beat Djokovic twice that year in majors)

He wasn't threatened in 15 because he didn't play anyone nearly as good as Fed was in 2011. It's that simple. It's a bit much to call the first set of the 2011 semi rubbish and then turn around and say 2015 was a better level when most of the final was around that level or even below and relied on Fed to tighten up. 2015 he did the bare minimum to win and got away with it due to a weaker draw, that doesn't make it better than 2011. His level didn't impress me at any point in the 2015 USO, whereas it did in 2011.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

He wasn't threatened in 15 because he didn't play anyone nearly as good as Fed was in 2011. It's that simple. It's a bit much to call the first set of the 2011 semi rubbish and then turn around and say 2015 was a better level when most of the final was around that level or even below and relied on Fed to tighten up. 2015 he did the bare minimum to win and got away with it due to a weaker draw, that doesn't make it better than 2011. His level didn't impress me at any point in the 2015 USO, whereas it did in 2011.

the final was impressive.

Also as far as Federer's level, let's note Fed's form for the months and year up to 15 USO. he made 3 slam finals, easily actually from Wim 14, Wim 15 , and USO 15.

11 only the RG final and was trash in 10 after AO.

 

[abmk]

the final was impressive.

Also as far as Federer's level, let's note Fed's form for the months and year up to 15 USO. he made 3 slam finals, easily actually from Wim 14, Wim 15 , and USO 15.

11 only the RG final and was trash in 10 after AO.

just take 11 and 15 , will you ?

AO 11 , losing to djoko in semi in a tight 3-setter >>> AO 15, losing to seppi in 4 sets
RG 2011 , RG semi defeating djoko in 4 sets and losing to nadal in final in 4 sets >>> RG 15, losing to stan in straight sets
wim 11, losing to an on fire tsonga in 5 sets < defeating murray in straights, but losing to djoko in 4 sets
USO 11 > USO 15

what matters the most is the USO 11 vs USO 15 level.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

just take 11 and 15 , will you ?

AO 11 , losing to djoko in semi in a tight 3-setter >>> AO 15, losing to seppi in 4 sets
RG 2011 , RG semi defeating djoko in 4 sets and losing to nadal in final >>> RG 15, losing to stan in straight sets
wim 11, losing to an on fire tsonga in 5 sets < defeating murray in straights, but losing to djoko in 4 sets
USO 11 > USO 15

what matters the most is the USO 11 vs USO 15 level.

First of all you yourself agreed Djoko 15 level was his best ever at Wimbledon. How can losing to Tsonga in the quarters, even if he was "on fire", be better or equal than beating Murray in the SFS in straights in one of his best serving performances ever and making a final.

 

[abmk]

First of all you yourself agreed Djoko 15 level was his best ever at Wimbledon. How can losing to Tsonga in the quarters, even if he was "on fire", be better or equal than beating Murray in the SFS in straights in one of his best serving performances ever and making a final.

I wrote <, not better or equal.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

I wrote <, not better or equal.

should be << or <<<

 

[lud]

Djokovic 2015 >>> Federer 2006

2015 Djokovic against his biggest rival - 5-3(Federer) and 4-0 (Nadal)
2006 Federer against his biggest rival - 2-4(Nadal, 0-4 at one point)

 

[FiReFTW]

Ud have to be literally totally BLIND to claim Djokovic 2015-16 is better than Djokovic 2011.
If you have eyes you can see the level of play for yourselves, Djokovic 2011 was far more brutal and punishing, and while Djokovic 2015-16 did improve a few areas like the serve from 2011, he was worse in many others.
The field was much weaker than in 2015, thats why it seems he was so immortal, and no Federer of 2015-16 is not even a shadow of Federer from 2005-2007, you literally do have to be BLIND as a BAT if you can't see the MASSIVE difference
in speed, quickness, powerfull strokes and overall level of play when you compare Federer of 2015-present to Federer of 2006.... or Nadal of present to Nadal of 2008... LIGHT YEARS away, LIGHT YEARS.

 

[abmk]

should be << or <<<

at worst, I could see a <<

Tsonga was playing really well ...If not for him GOATing, I think federer would have beaten him and there's a good chance he takes out Djoko in the semi.

Tsonga played clearly worse in the semi and Djoko played well to take him out in 4 sets.

In any case, main point is USO 11 > USO 15 and overall 11 form in slams for federer was clearly better than in 15.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

Ud have to be literally totally BLIND to claim Djokovic 2015-16 is better than Djokovic 2011.
If you have eyes you can see the level of play for yourselves, Djokovic 2011 was far more brutal and punishing, and while Djokovic 2015-16 did improve a few areas like the serve from 2011, he was worse in many others.
The field was much weaker than in 2015, thats why it seems he was so immortal, and no Federer of 2015-16 is not even a shadow of Federer from 2005-2007, you literally do have to be BLIND as a BAT if you can't see the MASSIVE difference
in speed, quickness, powerfull strokes and overall level of play when you compare Federer of 2015-present to Federer of 2006.... or Nadal of present to Nadal of 2008... LIGHT YEARS away, LIGHT YEARS.

Please dont blind shame. Im typing on a braille keyboard.

 

[TheAssassin]

Federer is always dominatED by Nadal on clay. But Novak in 2015 and half of 2016 was beating everybody everywhere.
That is the difference.

I was talking about level of play. I think Federer had a bit higher one than Djokovic at the events that suited him the most. But obviously Djokovic's late 2014-mid 2016 is unmatched dominance and he never had any big issue with any particular player. That's a major plus for him.

 

[NoleFam]

It was quite clear that Djokovic's level was starting to fall. The retirement against Lopez was easy to brush off; when Novak fell two sets to one against Kukushkin, that was worrisome, but could be chalked up to half-hearted DC commitment; but him losing the first set of his Indian Wells campaign 2-6 to Bjorn Fratangelo (?!) was a real alert, even though he won the match easily afterwards. The double-fault-fest against Thiem in Miami made it clear something was wrong. So it's not all hindsight.

However, after Djokovic pulled himself together and won RG dropping only two sets, I thought he was going to get back in track and never expected him to continue spiralling, the RG improvement proving to be temporary. So what followed was surprising, for sure.

I disagree with this. He only lost one set that tournament which was his first match against Fratengelo. He beat Tsonga in two sets 7-6 7-6, who played at a really high level and served lights out, beat Nadal in two sets and just destroyed Raonic in the final in a clinic in returning and shot making from start to finish. So no IW did not signal that his form was dropping and if anything showed that his form was still at a very high level. Even in Miami, he did not even lose a set and destroyed Nishikori in the final so clearly there was nothing wrong with his game at the time. After this we did see a few chinks in the armor with his loss to Vesely at Monte Carlo, but that could be contributed to fatigue more than anything. He did lose to Murray in Rome but again he had played much longer and tougher matches against Nishikori and Nadal whereas Murray cruised through in a cushy draw so he was a bit fatigued. Fast forward to RG, and he played amazing tennis in the last 3 matches to win the title. So his form really only dropped significantly after RG as far as I'm concerned.