Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
He looked pretty damn strong in 2012 and 13 as well!Well apart from 2011.
He looked pretty damn strong in 2012 and 13 as well!Well apart from 2011.
He looked pretty damn strong in 2012 and 13 as well!
This. Nadal was resurgent in 2013, and Djokovic still managed to keep the h2h for that year even iirc. The RG match in 2015 broke Nadal's spirit for good, it seems.He looked pretty damn strong in 2012 and 13 as well!
This. Nadal was resurgent in 2013, and Djokovic still managed to keep the h2h for that year even iirc. The RG match in 2015 broke Nadal's spirit for good, it seems.
You are too kind to Murray vis a vis Hewitt, but Murray may yet prove himself.I feel Safin was a better player than Wawrinka though (not the 2004 final but the 2005 SF and F). Wawrinka's best playing period coincided with Djokovic more than Safin with Federer, but it's undeniable IMO.
I also feel Murray is slightly better than Hewitt, but not enough to say he's great competition. They are roughly the same in terms of level of play - and that is not enough to take out Djokovic or any 1st tier ATG at their peak.
I've seen a lot of Thiem and I think he is a good player, but I don't think he is good enough to be challenging Djokovic. I also don't see the hype around Zverev, his brother posted similar results to him a few years ago (and was touted as a big player) so we'll need to wait and see.
Kyrgios is talented but he doesn't have it all there in the head to challenge the big guys either.
And I do acknowledge Murray has improved on clay, but this "Clayray" talk is very premature. I like Murray but I can still see clay is his least favorite surface and against the likes of Djokovic (who had an easier draw) makes his path (Djokovic's) very weak/easy.
oh yeah, those wins in masters and YEC ...while losing in both slam encounters ...
Don't Federer fans prop up WTF as some kind of quasi-slam? Have to shake off 10-23 somehow, right? Oh wait, Nadal beat him there too...and Djokovic also for the last three years, plus 2 Wimbledons and USO....
For what it is worth I am pretty sure Sabratha is a pretty big Murray fan and wants him to prove him wrong about just being around Hewitt's level and win some more big titles, and also turn the tables on Djokovic more (he has started to a bit more lately, especialy beating him in the Rome final, but he still has a ways to go to make it a true bonafide rivalry again). He is an even bigger Hewitt fan, I am pretty sure Hewitt is his all time favorite player, but obviously Hewitt isnt going to raise any from what he retired as, he is whatever he is. Murray can still raise further so he and others who like Murray would like to see him do just that, even if it means leaving Hewitt in his dust, but he had better do it soon since he is approaching 30.
Hopefully Murray reuniting with Lendl will be just what he needs, and given that his game was rising again even before reuniting with Lendl, hopefully he can now reach an even higher level of tennis than he did in 2012-2013 and reach a new peak for himself, regardless what that gets him vs Djokovic.
will wait for you here when djokovic is 32+ ..oh wait, you would've disappeared from here by then ...
YEC is the 5th biggest event. but a win there doesn't come remotely close to off-setting 2 losses in majors ...
Federer knows very well that WTF doesn't offset major losses (though Djokovic still won a major that year). Djoker did at 29 what Federer couldn't do his entire career. How many slams did Fed win after 29? How many GS finals did he win against Djokovic after then? Yes, let's see how Fed's records hold up in a few years...
Fed fans are the ones who seem to cling to WTF as a big deal (the one thing Fed still really has over Nadal). But looks like Djokovic is going for that record too...
pretty sure federer at his peak would've done at as well ......
..pretty sure federer at his peak would've done at as well ......
That is probably your line for anytime anyone accomplishes that is as good or better than something Fed accomplished. That line gets worns after awhile.
That is no different than the Sampras fans who say he would have easily won 17+ slams with the same competition as Fed; or the Nadal and Djokovic fanatics who say they would have easily matched what Fed did had they peaked in 2004-2007 instead, and more.
Hewitt in 2005 was better than Ndal in 2015.Safin won one slam in 2005 and a final in 2004. That's it during the Federer era. Wawrinka has had two lights out slam wins. I'd take Safin's career over Wawa, but Wawa has been greater competition in the Djokovic era than Safin was in the Fed era. Peak Hewitt was greater than Murray it just didn't happen when Fed was a contender and as you say by 2005 the injuries took Hewitt down from anywhere near peak.
We'll see at Wimbledon. Your weak clay field in 2016 had 4 of the top 5 players as eventual French Open champs. Murray's improved clay stats are undeniable the last two years (please wake up on this.) Thiem was a bit gassed for the SF with Djokovic after 4 hard sets with Goffin just the day before. Sorry if French SF is all you've seen of Thiem. Thiem is already surprising post clay season with unbelievable first serving numbers on grass (better than Sampras and way better than Fed) and fine returning. The first serve points won numbers are actually with an off serve to boot. Thiem is a moving target and Kyrgios is exceptionally dangerous too with already great hard court stats in 2016 that include a 2nd serve return. Zverev made a nice move on clay and I'm not sure if his game will take off on grass like it did on clay (hard courts he's not there.) Zverev just turned 19, so he looks like he's going to easily be a strong top ten player who might get the occaisional major. If the kid gets a bit stronger he's going to be the "stretch" on tour.
Really? 302 weeks vs 141.Federer knows very well that WTF doesn't offset major losses (though Djokovic still won a major that year). Djoker did at 29 what Federer couldn't do his entire career. How many slams did Fed win after 29? How many GS finals did he win against Djokovic after then? Yes, let's see how Fed's records hold up in a few years...
Fed fans are the ones who seem to cling to WTF as a big deal (the one thing Fed still really has over Nadal). But looks like Djokovic is going for that record too...
This is such a lame argument. Of course Federer can't face himself at Wimb sincevhe is the best grass player of this era. That's why Nadal had tougher competition at this slam.How many *slams* has Federer won after 29, particularly in finals against Djokovic.?
Federer has many Wimbledons against weak fields, but Nadal will always have the fact that he beat Federer during the latter's peak, in the final of Wimbledon, in what many consider to be the greatest grass court match of all time. Also Nadal beat Fed at AO during Fed's peak...
Nadal has 9 RG's the most titles at any slam, ever. Federer still has 7 Wimbledons, tied with Sampras (who won those titles against a harder field), and has come close to beating this record but was stopped by somebody in the most recent finals.
Also not at all sure about the peak Fed beating Nadal statement. I'm sure he still would've found a way to lose to Nadal, like he always does when it matters most.
And why does he have to beat Djoko in GS finals after 29? By that logic how many slams did Pete win fter 29 facing Safin or Hewitt in the finals?How many *slams* has Federer won after 29, particularly in finals against Djokovic.?
Federer has many Wimbledons against weak fields, but Nadal will always have the fact that he beat Federer during the latter's peak, in the final of Wimbledon, in what many consider to be the greatest grass court match of all time. Also Nadal beat Fed at AO during Fed's peak...
Nadal has 9 RG's the most titles at any slam, ever. Federer still has 7 Wimbledons, tied with Sampras (who won those titles against a harder field), and has come close to beating this record but was stopped by somebody in the most recent finals.
Also not at all sure about the peak Fed beating Nadal statement. I'm sure he still would've found a way to lose to Nadal, like he always does when it matters most.
Well IMO Fed game improved over the 2004-2007 period for one simple reason, back then he was on like 80% at most in order to win *except Nadal at FO*. Once he started loosing against Nadal, Djokovic, Del Potro on other surfaces where he was the king he needed to adopt and to improve in certain aspects of hes game. Wimb run in 2015 for Fed, also US15 , AO16 was incredible for hes age and in that Wimb everyone thought he is getting hes 18th there...but every page has 2 sides.
That 2nd side is Novak. He was the one who had a lot of health issues while playing against 2 giants in their prime (Fedal). For many years he was No3 and in order to believe that he can get to hes dream of being No1 he needs to improve even more, push even more, practice and get stronger in every aspect even more. That 2010 Davis Cup win gave him huge confidence boost alongside with hes breathing problem solved (Gluten-free diet). 2011 is the result.
All 3 of ATG's Fed,Nad,Djok pushed each other to the level of tennis that is for everyone else on the Tour way beyond real. When you are speaking about Djokovic playing in (Weak Era) where he has 17k ATP points , can you just say that hes level of tennis is just far above everyone else on the Tour? Yes, and i just explain you why is that the case. He's playing with such an ease that even when he is playing bad he is still wining and reaching finals of 99% of the tournaments in past 2 years.
He's legacy is yet to be written and he will not stop at 17GS,302 weaks or 6 WTF's. He lives for tennis and loves the game.
I can't believe people still believe the gluten free story.
If he isn't then who else is?I can't believe people still believe that Federer is GOAT.
That is probably your line for anytime anyone accomplishes that is as good or better than something Fed accomplished. That line gets worns after awhile.
That is no different than the Sampras fans who say he would have easily won 17+ slams with the same competition as Fed; or the Nadal and Djokovic fanatics who say they would have easily matched what Fed did had they peaked in 2004-2007 instead, and more.
I am rooting for Murray to step up once again and become a real rival for Djokovic, if nothing but for the sport's sake. IMOMurray is leagues above Hewitt, the guy reached 10 slam finals and was just stopped by GOAT candidates. He is the unluckiest multi-slam-level player in Open Era history because of this. Plus he won Wimbledon in front of his home crowd, also breaking one of the biggest curses in the history of the sport. If he gets even 2-3 more slams I think he can retire with few regrets.
If he isn't then who else is?
Certainly not Djokovic as he is still behind in accomplishments.
So? Djokovic also won half of his slams in a weaker era.Federer fans will always point to his unmatched tally of 17 Grand Slams when arguing that he is the GOAT. However, it is certainly arguable that the majority of his titles came in a weaker era of tennis, making his tally somewhat misleading.
Between 2003 and 2007, Federer won 12 slams. Three came against Andy Roddick, who admits he is one of the worst ever players to hold the no.1 ranking.
One came against Lleyton Hewitt, who faded dramatically as tennis evolved into the physical, baseline-dominated game it has become.
Three came against Mark Philippoussis, Marat Safin and Marcos Baghdatis, who were ranked 48th, 86th and 54th in the world respectively when Federer beat them in a final.
He also beat a 35-year-old Andre Agassi in what was his last appearance in a major final, got two wins against an emerging-yet-still-raw Nadal, and beat Djokovic in 2007, when the Serb was an entirely different player to what he is now.
Since 2007, Federer has won just five slams, with another coming against Roddick, while he also clinched his only French Open title against the-then world no.25 Robin Soderling, who prevented the Swiss from having to beat Nadal on clay (something which Djokovic has since managed.)
By comparison, all but one of Djokovic’s major titles have come against Federer, Nadal or Murray. The average rankings of the players Federer and Djokovic have faced in finals also tells a story of its own: Federer’s stands at 16.3, while Djokovic’s is 6.5.
And the book is not closed yet...
So? Djokovic also won half of his slams in a weaker era.
Federer got the tougher opponents in 2009 at FO and Wimb. Delpo and Roddick played better that year than Djokovic and Murray, players whom Fed would have easily beaten in 2009 as they couldn't even beat the weak era players like Roddick, Gonzo and Haas.
Nadal has also won just 3 GS after the season in which he turned 26.
Sampras also won just 4 GS after he turned 26.
How do you explain these 2 not winning as much, because it seems that only Federer gets criticized for it?
Federer would have dominated as much as Djokovic against a 33-34 year old player, heavily declined Nadal, Wawrinka and Murray.
The Big 4 era was at its best in 2011-2012.If we take head-to-head records as one of the main indicators of GOAT worthiness, then Novak is now the undisputed no. 1.
To be the best, you surely have to be able to beat those around you.
For some context, Federer trails Nadal 23-11 in their head-to-head.
Furthermore, since Novak stepped up a gear in 2011, he has recovered from 13-6 down against Roger, winning six of their last eight meetings, and hasn’t lost to him in a Slam since Wimbledon 2012.
It’s widely agreed that the era of the ‘big-four’ is the strongest in tennis history, and if Djokovic sits at the top of that quartet, that makes him the GOAT by default, doesn’t it?
Let us remember that Djokovic is still only 29, yet is already firmly in the ‘best ever’ conversation.
Stop deflecting; the story is ridiculous.I can't believe people still believe that Federer is GOAT.
This is very subjective. 2007 Djokovic was better than 2010 Djokovic, I see no reason why you should put him in a separate category. 2000-2007 Djokovic LOL.2008-2015 Djokovic > 2000-2007 Federer
2008-2015 Nadal > 2001-2007 Nadal
2008-2015 Federer > 2000-2007 Agassi
2008-2015 Murray > 2000-07 Hewitt
2008-2015 Wawrinka > 2000-07 Roddick
2008-2015 Del Potro < 2000-07 Safin
2008-2015 Berdych < 2000-07 Nalbandian
2008-2015 Tsonga > 2000-07 Davydenko
2008-2015 Davydenko > 2000-07 Djokovic
After 2002, Balls and courts were significantly tweaked to cause players to participate in longer rallies, and to kill the over-eagerness of the Great serve-and-volley specialists.
This killed the competition after 2003, as Apex S&V Predator Pete Sampras retired in 2002, while other great S&V specialists like Rafter, Krajicek and Henman were rendered useless on slower surfaces, while Agassi was too old to co-dominate with Federer.
And this Weaker Era Of the Weaker Era (2003-2007) held true till the Big 4 came onto the scene around 2007-08.
This is why there is some credence to the Weak Era Theory and how it hugely benefitted Federer.
Does that mean Federer isn’t great?
Absolutely not.
But it does mean his case for the imaginary ‘GOAT’ title is a lot weaker than most people know, and the cases of Novak and Rafa are stronger than most people believe.
Uh.. Hewitt fell apart because he was riddled with injuries. Not because the sport became "more physical". Did you watch Hewitt? Like, at all? The guy had no problem trading groundstokes with Andre freaking Agassi - yet he fell because of the "rise of Stretch and Murray"? LOL.Federer fans will always point to his unmatched tally of 17 Grand Slams when arguing that he is the GOAT. However, it is certainly arguable that the majority of his titles came in a weaker era of tennis, making his tally somewhat misleading.
Between 2003 and 2007, Federer won 12 slams. Three came against Andy Roddick, who admits he is one of the worst ever players to hold the no.1 ranking.
One came against Lleyton Hewitt, who faded dramatically as tennis evolved into the physical, baseline-dominated game it has become.
Three came against Mark Philippoussis, Marat Safin and Marcos Baghdatis, who were ranked 48th, 86th and 54th in the world respectively when Federer beat them in a final.
He also beat a 35-year-old Andre Agassi in what was his last appearance in a major final, got two wins against an emerging-yet-still-raw Nadal, and beat Djokovic in 2007, when the Serb was an entirely different player to what he is now.
Since 2007, Federer has won just five slams, with another coming against Roddick, while he also clinched his only French Open title against the-then world no.25 Robin Soderling, who prevented the Swiss from having to beat Nadal on clay (something which Djokovic has since managed.)
By comparison, all but one of Djokovic’s major titles have come against Federer, Nadal or Murray. The average rankings of the players Federer and Djokovic have faced in finals also tells a story of its own: Federer’s stands at 16.3, while Djokovic’s is 6.5.
And the book is not closed yet...
Just like Novak doesn't need to beat peak Fed to prove himself but you still hear loads of Fed trolls on here constantly whining about how he's beating up on an old man in GS finals to pad his resume, like even beating a Federer at 80% in a Wimbledon final is such an easy thing to accomplish.And why does he have to beat Djoko in GS finals after 29? By that logic how many slams did Pete win fter 29 facing Safin or Hewitt in the finals?
Older Fed still did better in the slams against 2011-2012 Nole than peak Nadal himself.
Fed does not need to beat Djoko in a slam final to prove himself.He has already Nole in plenty of big matches. Nole himself has never beaten prime Fed in a slam final.
Just like Novak doesn't need to beat peak Fed to prove himself but you still hear loads of Fed trolls on here constantly whining about how he's beating up on an old man in GS finals to pad his resume, like even beating a Federer at 80% in a Wimbledon final is such an easy thing to accomplish.
Problem is is that fedal trolls have driven many to hate federer with their constant drooling and spewing.I am talking here only to those Djokovic fans who are more Fed haters than Djokovic fans.
"Fact"? All I see is the usual BS coming from you Saby. At the end of the day a slam is a slam no matter how strong or weak you think the competition is and if Djokovic reaches 17 I'm pretty sure the vast majority of sane people will regard him as the greatest of the Open Era, perhaps with even less than 17 if he were to accomplish something truly special like the Calendar Grand Slam or the Double Career Slam. I understand you hate Novak but you should't allow that to affect your objectivity as it just makes you look petty and that's never a good look.Uh.. Hewitt fell apart because he was riddled with injuries. Not because the sport became "more physical". Did you watch Hewitt? Like, at all? The guy had no problem trading groundstokes with Andre freaking Agassi - yet he fell because of the "rise of Stretch and Murray"? LOL.
And in terms of level of play, no, Murray isn't superior to Hewitt. He is better due to his consistency and all-around resume.
Oh and PS - today is weaker than any time Federer was winning, including 2006. You have to go back to 1998 to see a time tennis has been as weak as it is, so Djokovic will need 18 or 19 slams to surpass Federer due to this fact.
At least the majority of them will have fu*ked off to the Former Pro Player forum.The question is if after fedal retirement will their trolls still be involved in tennis?
That would be fantastico!At least the majority of them will have fu*ked off to the Former Pro Player forum.
If we were just to compare slam count alone and IF Nole wins 17 slams, the tie-breaker would be the difference in number of Wimbledon.
The consensus is that Wimbledon has always been the holy grail of tennis.
If we were just to compare slam count alone and IF Nole wins 17 slams, the tie-breaker would be the difference in number of Wimbledon. Not all slams are equally prestigious and people valued each one over the others. The consensus is that Wimbledon has always been the holy grail of tennis. I mean just imagine Borg won 5 AO instead of 5 Wimbledon, he wouldn't be placed more in goat argument, less of a sport icon and not as much famous/popular.
Starting to get a bit nervous TMF?If we were just to compare slam count alone and IF Nole wins 17 slams, the tie-breaker would be the difference in number of Wimbledon. Not all slams are equally prestigious and people valued each one over the others. The consensus is that Wimbledon has always been the holy grail of tennis. I mean just imagine Borg won 5 AO instead of 5 Wimbledon, he wouldn't be placed more in goat argument, less of a sport icon and not as much famous/popular.
Starting to get a bit nervous TMF?
The thing that makes me laugh about TMF is how badly he doesn't want Nadal, Djokovic or any other player to surpass Federer's records. I get that Roger's his all time favourite player and he wants him to be considered the greatest, there's nothing wrong with that, but the way he tries so hard to discredit other ATG's achievements to make Fed's look better just reeks of desperation to me, like it'd really impact his whole life if some other guy(in this case Novak) has the temerity to break the Slam record. I don't know, I just find it all a bit funny and yet at the same time quite sad.Djokovic is still very far away from 17, and chances are slim that he'll ever reach that. And yet, you read this kind of posts every day. Although, when you think of it, if by any chance he does win 5 more, there will be no place to run for Federer. Every career defining streak he has pales in comparison to what Djokovic accomplished on the 5th of June 2016. 10 straight GS finals, 23 straight GS semis...You name it. If he indeed gets to 17 he'll probably reach 300 weeks at #1, too.
But, even if he doesn't, I'd still be happy with what he achieved over the years. Knowing that he's won it all, plus done something really huge, that Federer and Nadal never did. There's a reason Rod Laver is a living legend, and in his case it is not the overall number of Slams he won.
The thing that makes me laugh about TMF is how badly he doesn't want Nadal, Djokovic or any other player to surpass Federer's records. I get that Roger's his all time favourite player and he wants him to be considered the greatest, there's nothing wrong with that, but the way he tries so hard to discredit other ATG's achievements to make Fed's look better just reeks of desperation to me, like it'd really impact his whole life if some other guy(in this case Novak) has the temerity to break the Slam record. I don't know, I just find it all a bit funny and yet at the same time quite sad.
Doubt Hewitt or Roddick would get "owned" by Murray - be serious now.That would be fantastico!
Get outa here!
How a fan base can complain about Djokovic's opponents and weak era is beyond me when their favs first 7 major finals opponents would get owned by Murray and 30+ year old Federer and even Nadal lmao! is beyond ludicrous pitiful and petty.
and frankly just plain stupid.
Yes, it's a fact tennis is at its weakest point in 20 years. Accept it and move on."Fact"? All I see is the usual BS coming from you Saby. At the end of the day a slam is a slam no matter how strong or weak you think the competition is and if Djokovic reaches 17 I'm pretty sure the vast majority of sane people will regard him as the greatest of the Open Era, perhaps with even less than 17 if he were to accomplish something truly special like the Calendar Grand Slam or the Double Career Slam. I understand you hate Novak but you should't allow that to affect your objectivity as it just makes you look petty and that's never a good look.
Same re: Novak and your horrible crowd of idiots who proclaim him the greatest guy to ever set foot on a tennis court WITH 12 MAJORS.Problem is is that fedal trolls have driven many to hate federer with their constant drooling and spewing.
Oh dear.Yes, it's a fact tennis is at its weakest point in 20 years. Accept it and move on.
And no, Stretch will need 18 or 19 slams to surpass Federer - mainly because he's only won 6 slams in a "strong era" (Fed won 5 in one so not a huge difference anyway) so MOST of his majors will come in the weakest era quite possibly ever. You think people are going to say he's better than even Sampras when/if he achieves the CYGS? People will just say it's because he got the chance to play Andy Murray in a RG final/weak opponents all around and that Sampras could do the same himself if given the chance.
Once he gets to 1 or 2 majors ahead of Federer he will be considered better (undisputably) but it's absolutely delusional and wrong to expect people to rate this weak era champ higher than another weak era champ with LESS majors. Makes ZERO sense.