2017 Paris Bercy QF - Juan Martin Del Potro vs Death of Tennis incarnate

[-snake-]

Murray at his best barely got the job done last year.

This. Even Isner's antidote had a f'cking hard time against him on this court.

 

[DRII]

depressing toilet result. boo hiss.

ROFL...

best line ever!

 

[Meles]

This. Even Isner's antidote had a f'cking hard time against him on this court.

And now we're learning why fast courts are a really bad idea.
1. No way is Isner a better player than Dimitrov right now
2. Same can be said with Delpo
3. Entire tour flagging on these surfaces. Murray still hasn't recovered from last year. Fedal both out of Paris now. Could be Isner and Cilic as the heavies at WTF, but Sock looks plenty game enough to take the prize. WTF will play very close to Paris.
4. Extremely mobile baseliners come through the draws to clash with servebots and Fedal; not a pretty picture.

Did tennis learn nothing from the later 90's snoozes?

 

[Gazelle]

And now we're learning why fast courts are a really bad idea.
1. No way is Isner a better player than Dimitrov right now
2. Same can be said with Delpo
3. Entire tour flagging on these surfaces. Murray still hasn't recovered from last year. Fedal both out of Paris now. Could be Isner and Cilic as the heavies at WTF, but Sock looks plenty game enough to take the prize. WTF will play very close to Paris.
4. Extremely mobile baseliners come through the draws to clash with servebots and Fedal; not a pretty picture.

Did tennis learn nothing from the later 90's snoozes?

Your conclusions don't really correlate much with the facts.

 

[Meles]

Your conclusions don't really correlate much with the facts.

What facts don't correlate? Murray, Raonic, Cilic, and Isner last year's SF group.

 

[-snake-]

What facts don't correlate? Murray, Raonic, Cilic, and Isner last year's SF group.

And RaoMUG played Murr tough too

 

[Red Rick]

What facts don't correlate? Murray, Raonic, Cilic, and Isner last year's SF group.

I just want to know how they measure court speed exactly because I never get the idea that Paris is fast, even when I consider the camera angle

 

[-snake-]

I just want to know how they measure court speed exactly because I never get the idea that Paris is fast, even when I consider the camera angle

It's deceiving. Check the Murr vs Rao/Isner highlights from last year. Meles may have a point here.

 

[Deleted member 743561]

so's yours

Are you sure?

 

[Meles]

I just want to know how they measure court speed exactly because I never get the idea that Paris is fast, even when I consider the camera angle

It's deceiving. Check the Murr vs Rao/Isner highlights from last year. Meles may have a point here.

This is the dealio

Proof is in the pudding; look who's winning. Isner tough on hot very fast early US Open hard court series. This surface is faster, but speed through air slower due to temperature. Guy Frauget claimed even faster in 2017 for Paris. Servebot city or baseline dominating speed merchants contending. Easier for lesser servers to hold and guys like Diego only one with shot at breaking Isner (Isner saved all 4 break points. Grigs got him twice and had 11 BPs.)
WTF likely more of the same this year so will be interesting if Isner makes it.

Was actually on the phone with the Tennis TV program director Monday and they produce all ATP 500/1000 coverage now. Requested more graphics speed graphics for 2017 as everyone interested, but he stated these were very hit or miss whether they were available. Emailed them Thiem 2nd serve won data on hard courts in 2nd half and explained. We'll see if they produce something for WTF, but not hopeful.

 

[Meles]

And RaoMUG played Murr tough too

Mug withdrew Bercy, but delivered at WTF. Glasikori stumbled into SF with Nole and got smoked.

Federer benefiting from these increases in speed, but I suspect the tournaments/tour guilty of trying to topple Djokovic from the top who often not a fast hard court player. Shanghai has been the worst for speed the last few years and RBA torpedoed Djoko last year. Has Shanghai always been the fastest? It was very fast even in 2015. Looks like Shanghai started getting faster in 2013:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/shanghai-courts.479896/
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/02/s...x-it-up-to-ensure-an-entertaining-future.html

Looks like Shanghai started getting faster in 2010, at least 40 on index would be my guess though no measurements available and its been creeping up ever since.

 

[Berasategui94]

This is the dealio

Proof is in the pudding; look who's winning. Isner tough on hot very fast early US Open hard court series. This surface is faster, but speed through air slower due to temperature. Guy Frauget claimed even faster in 2017 for Paris. Servebot city or baseline dominating speed merchants contending. Easier for lesser servers to hold and guys like Diego only one with shot at breaking Isner (Isner saved all 4 break points. Grigs got him twice and had 11 BPs.)
WTF likely more of the same this year so will be interesting if Isner makes it.

Was actually on the phone with the Tennis TV program director Monday and they produce all ATP 500/1000 coverage now. Requested more graphics speed graphics for 2017 as everyone interested, but he stated these were very hit or miss whether they were available. Emailed them Thiem 2nd serve won data on hard courts in 2nd half and explained. We'll see if they produce something for WTF, but not hopeful.

Ironically Dimitrov lost, not because he couldn't break Isner, but because he threw away his own service game. He should've won it.

But about court speed in Paris, one reason they've made it faster is probably to give their own boys a better chance. And Benneteau has definitely benefited from it, let's hope he goes all the way now, none of the remaining players are impossible for him to beat.

 

[Berasategui94]

Mug withdrew Bercy, but delivered at WTF. Glasikori stumbled into SF with Nole and got smoked.

Federer benefiting from these increases in speed, but I suspect the tournaments/tour guilty of trying to topple Djokovic from the top who often not a fast hard court player. Shanghai has been the worst for speed the last few years and RBA torpedoed Djoko last year. Has Shanghai always been the fastest? It was very fast even in 2015. Looks like Shanghai started getting faster in 2013:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/shanghai-courts.479896/
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/02/s...x-it-up-to-ensure-an-entertaining-future.html

Looks like Shanghai started getting faster in 2010, at least 40 on index would be my guess though no measurements available and its been creeping up ever since.

I think it was 44 to 45 last year, probably the fastest outdoors hardcourt on the tour along with Washington.

 

[Mainad]

WTF did Delpo said to Isner?
Isner looks like embarassed.

Hope it wasn't anything about Izzy's momma?

 

[-snake-]

Mug withdrew Bercy, but delivered at WTF. Glasikori stumbled into SF with Nole and got smoked.

Federer benefiting from these increases in speed, but I suspect the tournaments/tour guilty of trying to topple Djokovic from the top who often not a fast hard court player. Shanghai has been the worst for speed the last few years and RBA torpedoed Djoko last year. Has Shanghai always been the fastest? It was very fast even in 2015. Looks like Shanghai started getting faster in 2013:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/shanghai-courts.479896/
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/02/s...x-it-up-to-ensure-an-entertaining-future.html

Looks like Shanghai started getting faster in 2010, at least 40 on index would be my guess though no measurements available and its been creeping up ever since.

More evidence:

 

[Mainad]

Murray at his best barely got the job done last year.

On the other hand, Murray has never lost to Isner.

 

[Meles]

Ironically Dimitrov lost, not because he couldn't break Isner, but because he threw away his own service game. He should've won it.

But about court speed in Paris, one reason they've made it faster is probably to give their own boys a better chance. And Benneteau has definitely benefited from it, let's hope he goes all the way now, none of the remaining players are impossible for him to beat.

Love Benny, and fitting end to this ride at Guy Frauget's Geriatric Park.

 

[Meles]

More evidence:

We could have had a Federer vs Isner final this year.

 

[Meles]

On the other hand, Murray has never lost to Isner.

Dangerously fast Mainad like I've been saying. Even Berdbrain almost took out the Muzziah last year.
F I Hard Andy Murray John Isner 6-3 6-7(4) 6-4 H2H
SF I Hard Andy Murray Milos Raonic WO H2H
QF I Hard Andy Murray Tomas Berdych 7-6(9) 7-5 H2H

Seems like Berdy had huge lead in the breaker only for the Muzziah to destroy him once again. GOAT returner Murray took care of Isner pretty easily on the whole and Isner was absolutely unconscious on serve. Best Izzy's ever served.

 

[ductrung3993]

Would be such a shame if a low quality player like Carreno Busta make it to the WFT

 

[kishnabe]

Hoping, Isner goes all the way. He played Murray and Nadal tough in his MS1000 finals. Came a bit short....would be nice to see him win this.

He far bigger threat than Busta will be for the WTF field.

 

[metsman]

And now we're learning why fast courts are a really bad idea.
1. No way is Isner a better player than Dimitrov right now
2. Same can be said with Delpo
3. Entire tour flagging on these surfaces. Murray still hasn't recovered from last year. Fedal both out of Paris now. Could be Isner and Cilic as the heavies at WTF, but Sock looks plenty game enough to take the prize. WTF will play very close to Paris.
4. Extremely mobile baseliners come through the draws to clash with servebots and Fedal; not a pretty picture.

Did tennis learn nothing from the later 90's snoozes?

not to mention that the one dimensional baseline bots you like so much can't do crap on quicker courts despite the fact that both of them can pop the serve at 135

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

@Red Rick
Hows your day?
Did you watch it?
Murray should have been there

 

[Red Rick]

@Red Rick
Hows your day?
Did you watch it?
Murray should have been there

1. Not nearly as intoxated as I intended to be
2. Unfortunately, yes
3. Yes
3.1 Ja
3.2 Jawohl
3.3 Oui
3.4 Sí
3.5 Da
3.6 Etiam
3.7 Ja
3.8 Ja
3.9 Já
3.10 Kyllä
3.11 ναι
3.12 bai
3.13 അതെ
3.14 Yebo
3.15 ඔව්
3.16 예
3.17 हां
3.18 是的
3.19 はい
3.20 ʻo ia

 

[Gary Duane]

And now we're learning why fast courts are a really bad idea.
1. No way is Isner a better player than Dimitrov right now
2. Same can be said with Delpo
3. Entire tour flagging on these surfaces. Murray still hasn't recovered from last year. Fedal both out of Paris now. Could be Isner and Cilic as the heavies at WTF, but Sock looks plenty game enough to take the prize. WTF will play very close to Paris.
4. Extremely mobile baseliners come through the draws to clash with servebots and Fedal; not a pretty picture.

Did tennis learn nothing from the later 90's snoozes?

Again, all week people have been talking about slow conditions. So I'm confused.

I can't tell anything with this crazy camera angle.

My conclusion: it's more about the bounce. When the bounce is low, players have less time on any surface, and it favors a big serve. Indoors is good for precision tennis, also good for servers, good for volleying.

High bounce favors baseliners, even so called "faster" conditions, because the ball is in the air longer and players have more time to prepare.

 

[Red Rick]

Again, all week people have been talking about slow conditions. So I'm confused.

I can't tell anything with this crazy camera angle.

My conclusion: it's more about the bounce. When the bounce is low, players have less time on any surface, and it favors a big serve. Indoors is good for precision tennis, also good for servers, good for volleying.

High bounce favors baseliners, even so called "faster" conditions, because the ball is in the air longer and players have more time to prepare.

I think this is more a case. Lower bounce also favours net players cause passing is way harder and flat grinders cause there's nothing to tee off on and they can take the ball super early.

 

[VolleyHelena]

Good Victory for Isner

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

1. Not nearly as intoxated as I intended to be
2. Unfortunately, yes
3. Yes
3.1 Ja
3.2 Jawohl
3.3 Oui
3.4 Sí
3.5 Da
3.6 Etiam
3.7 Ja
3.8 Ja
3.9 Já
3.10 Kyllä
3.11 ναι
3.12 bai
3.13 അതെ
3.14 Yebo
3.15 ඔව්
3.16 예
3.17 हां
3.18 是的
3.19 はい
3.20 ʻo ia

Hahahahahaha
In a way you are at your funniest when youre mad and dissapointed. If I was your friend irl I would have teased and triggered you all the time

Im trying not to think of it what happened today and yesterday. And right now trying my best to suppress the ongoing match in case it has a depressesive outcome too

We need the goat, Murray, back. He is the only player that could make this Paris fun. This kind of courts and his game is a good combo.

 

[Gary Duane]

I think this is more a case. Lower bounce also favours net players cause passing is way harder and flat grinders cause there's nothing to tee off on and they can take the ball super early.

If you think about, when courts are called "fast" it seems to be about how fast the ball moves through the court, but this component of what the ball does is about distance traveled from the bounce to the racket head. For a guy like Rafa the real "speed" thing is that it takes the bite out of his spin. The spin does not do as much, and it should not grab a slice as much. So players don't have to adjust their position as much because of spin.

But the time they have to prepare is really linked to the height of the bounce. It's not going to make that much difference returning against guys who hit flatter. But returning against guys like Nadal and Sock gets a lot more difficult because of what the courts do to the spin. Also, "slower courts" are going to grab more, so theoretically the height of the bounce should vary more.

I think it is more complicated than the whole thing is normally presented.

Regardless I see zero evidence that big servers have been favored in Paris. I only see a very odd year with odd results and odd winners.

 

[speedysteve]

Good match. Entertaining. Isner won more points and won
Some good FH slapping action but Delpo never seemed to get his really big gun firing.

Nice 139.8mph 1st serve bomb in the last game from big John. And a 120 2nd serve also for good measure.

Delpo looked flat and then a bit hobbled but Isner carries injury well too.

Sad Delpo didn't make the WTF.
Hope Isner goes on to win this and make it.

 

[Red Rick]

If you think about, when courts are called "fast" it seems to be about how fast the ball moves through the court, but this component of what the ball does is about distance traveled from the bounce to the racket head. For a guy like Rafa the real "speed" thing is that it takes the bite out of his spin. The spin does not do as much, and it should not grab a slice as much. So players don't have to adjust their position as much because of spin.

But the time they have to prepare is really linked to the height of the bounce. It's not going to make that much difference returning against guys who hit flatter. But returning against guys like Nadal and Sock gets a lot more difficult because of what the courts do to the spin. Also, "slower courts" are going to grab more, so theoretically the height of the bounce should vary more.

I think it is more complicated than the whole thing is normally presented.

Regardless I see zero evidence that big servers have been favored in Paris. I only see a very odd year with odd results and odd winners.

Yeah, but I don't hink court speed and bounce and court reaction to spin are necessarily super strongly correlated. USO is typically both faster and higher bouncing than Down Under

 

[speedysteve]

Just had a court speed update on TennisTV. Sorry if already been shown.

Personally I like medium to medium fast.
We have clay for slow.
Wouldn't kill them to through in some blue.. why have it there?

Gets marginally faster as it wears.

 

[Gary Duane]

Yeah, but I don't hink court speed and bounce and court reaction to spin are necessarily super strongly correlated. USO is typically both faster and higher bouncing than Down Under

That's what I am saying.

Those two factors may or may not support each other. I think more in terms of the "softness" of the court or "sponginess" and the height of the bounce. I don't know what the physics are that determine the results. Logically it seems like grass should grab a lot because of the nature of grass itself, and we all know the bounce is lower. This "grabbing" I would think would slow down the courts in terms of speed when the grass is green and reduce as you get more dirt. Probably less grab than clay because of the smaller particles.

But this is just a guess.

I think most of the so-called "speed" of grass comes from the low bounce - very little time to prepare - plus uneven bounces (better to use a much shorter swing), and that has historically meant more weak returns and more balls hit up.

To my eyes the height of the bounce is the biggest factor, but a lot of grit combined with "harder hard" (higher bounces) is going to be the most like clay.

Again, all this is just a guess.

I don't know it for a fact, I just know it's true!

 

[Red Rick]

That's what I am saying.

Those two factors may or may not support each other. I think more in terms of the "softness" of the court or "sponginess" and the height of the bounce. I don't know what the physics are that determine the results. Logically it seems like grass should grab a lot because of the nature of grass itself, and we all know the bounce is lower. This "grabbing" I would think would slow down the courts in terms of speed when the grass is green and reduce as you get more dirt. Probably less grab than clay because of the smaller particles.

But this is just a guess.

I think most of the so-called "speed" of grass comes from the low bounce - very little time to prepare - plus uneven bounces (better to use a much shorter swing), and that has historically meant more weak returns and more balls hit up.

To my eyes the height of the bounce is the biggest factor, but a lot of grit combined with "harder hard" (higher bounces) is going to be the most like clay.

Again, all this is just a guess.

I don't know it for a fact, I just know it's true!

It's not just the surface, it's also what's beneath the surface, though the surface is more important in grit and skiddyness.

Also, a lot of what we call court speed may just be down to balls or circumstances. Weren't they saying at one point that Shanghai was slow but the balls were quick?

 

[Gary Duane]

Just had a court speed update on TennisTV. Sorry if already been shown.

Personally I like medium to medium fast.
We have clay for slow.
Wouldn't kill them to through in some blue.. why have it there?

Gets marginally faster as it wears.

Ah, FACTS!!!

Such a nice thing.

Looks like @Meles is right.

Apparently they start to wear off some of the grit as the play, and that speeds things up.

 

[Gary Duane]

It's not just the surface, it's also what's beneath the surface, though the surface is more important in grit and skiddyness.

Also, a lot of what we call court speed may just be down to balls or circumstances. Weren't they saying at one point that Shanghai was slow but the balls were quick?

I don't know how they make their measurements.

To me it should be about two things:

1. Given that the same ball is hit at the same height, same spin and same trajectory, how fast does that ball move after hitting the court.

2. Assuming the same thing as in #1, what is the difference in the height of the bounce?

That's complicated enough already, and we aren't talking about temperature, and humidity.

Add to that different balls, and it seems like the factors are almost hopelessly complicated.

I don't know how they make these speed indexes.

 

[Red Rick]

I don't know how they make their measurements.

To me it should be about two things:

1. Given that the same ball is hit at the same height, same spin and same trajectory, how fast does that ball move after hitting the court.

2. Assuming the same thing as in #1, what is the difference in the height of the bounce?

That's complicated enough already, and we aren't talking about temperature, and humidity.

Add to that different balls, and it seems like the factors are almost hopelessly complicated.

I don't know how they make these speed indexes.

Yeah it's all pretty dumb.

Hey we have 100 variables and we're gonna slap 1 number on it

 

[coloskier]

And now we're learning why fast courts are a really bad idea.
1. No way is Isner a better player than Dimitrov right now
2. Same can be said with Delpo
3. Entire tour flagging on these surfaces. Murray still hasn't recovered from last year. Fedal both out of Paris now. Could be Isner and Cilic as the heavies at WTF, but Sock looks plenty game enough to take the prize. WTF will play very close to Paris.
4. Extremely mobile baseliners come through the draws to clash with servebots and Fedal; not a pretty picture.

Did tennis learn nothing from the later 90's snoozes?

Obviously not, since they decided to change all the courts to boring baseline rallies. Now they are changing it back, about time. Keep the clay slow, speed up everything else, will lead to more diversity in the game.

 

[Meles]

Obviously not, since they decided to change all the courts to boring baseline rallies. Now they are changing it back, about time. Keep the clay slow, speed up everything else, will lead to more diversity in the game.

The project in Paris is going so well.