Rafa4LifeEver
G.O.A.T.
Nadal's worst patch :- march 2015 - june 2016, Nadovic meetings - 7
Djokovic's worst patch :- January 2017 - june 2018, nadovic meetings - 2
Djokovic's worst patch :- January 2017 - june 2018, nadovic meetings - 2
two lines why djokovic's h2h record against nadal is misleading people
- Thread starter Rafa4LifeEver
- Start date
Rafa4LifeEver
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic has really been historically lucky to meet nadal in his worst time period and establish a mental edge over him.
Whereas he himself failed to reach nadal in his own worst period.
Nadal is a way better player than Djokovic in h2h, slam history reflects that. And to everyone who's enjoying 2019 ao defeat of nadal at the hands of Djokovic, I tell you, 2017-2018-2018 every version of Djokovic would have received bagels and breadsticks if he had audacity to meet nadal.
But nope.
And some fans even claim him to be the goat or mightiest warrior and whatnot! Warriors don't run away or retire from matches. And our beloved hero Djokovic has made a record about it. Career slam of retiring, running away from Nadal when he's in bad form and jumping all over him when the Spaniard is struggling.
With all due respect to Djokovic, and I'm sorry for this rant as well.
Whereas he himself failed to reach nadal in his own worst period.
Nadal is a way better player than Djokovic in h2h, slam history reflects that. And to everyone who's enjoying 2019 ao defeat of nadal at the hands of Djokovic, I tell you, 2017-2018-2018 every version of Djokovic would have received bagels and breadsticks if he had audacity to meet nadal.
But nope.
And some fans even claim him to be the goat or mightiest warrior and whatnot! Warriors don't run away or retire from matches. And our beloved hero Djokovic has made a record about it. Career slam of retiring, running away from Nadal when he's in bad form and jumping all over him when the Spaniard is struggling.
With all due respect to Djokovic, and I'm sorry for this rant as well.
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Rafa4LifeEver
G.O.A.T.
.
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jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic's worst period magically ends right before their 2018 Wimbledon match? Bery conbenient, no?
Also if we are going this route then we also have to dismiss a number of their earlier career meetings, since Nadal developed as a player faster than Djokovic
By the way this is the exact same argument Fed fans use when the Fedal H2H is brought up: Nadal running away from meetings with Fed off clay
TheAssassin
Legend
Slam meetings:
Roland Garros 7
US Open 3
Wimbledon 3
Australian Open 2
7 on clay, 8 at other three Majors combined.
The Masters where they played the most:
Rome 8
Monte Carlo 4
Hamburg/Madrid 4
All clay.
24 matches on clay, 27 on hard courts. Hard court season is several months longer.
Yeah, clearly Djokovic is the one who likes to run away.
Not to mention that his early 2017 to mid 2018 patch includes the injury absence that lasted half a year. Maybe we should also count Nadal's longer breaks against him as well...
Roland Garros 7
US Open 3
Wimbledon 3
Australian Open 2
7 on clay, 8 at other three Majors combined.
The Masters where they played the most:
Rome 8
Monte Carlo 4
Hamburg/Madrid 4
All clay.
24 matches on clay, 27 on hard courts. Hard court season is several months longer.
Yeah, clearly Djokovic is the one who likes to run away.
Not to mention that his early 2017 to mid 2018 patch includes the injury absence that lasted half a year. Maybe we should also count Nadal's longer breaks against him as well...
Hammered, thanks for playing
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
Yep, it has helped him in h2h against Fed as well. Wont get into it, but hard to buy the argument being sold here when the "clay" argument is even stronger. It becomes a wash at best.Slam meetings:
Roland Garros 7
US Open 3
Wimbledon 3
Australian Open 2
7 on clay, 8 at other three Majors combined.
The Masters where they played the most:
Rome 8
Monte Carlo 4
Hamburg/Madrid 4
All clay.
24 matches on clay, 27 on hard courts. Hard court season is several months longer.
Yeah, clearly Djokovic is the one who likes to run away.
Not to mention that his early 2017 to mid 2018 patch includes the injury absence that lasted half a year. Maybe we should also count Nadal's longer breaks against him as well...
F
FRV3
Guest
The thing about Djokovic is he ups his level when he faces Nadal or Federer. Though recently, he has lapses throughout a match where he doesn't play well whenever he faces a good opponent in a BO5 match. But I'd have to disagree with you when you say an out of form Djokovic would have received "bagels and breadsticks" from 2017 to 2018 in a match against Nadal. Though I will say one thing, if Djokovic dropped his level for two sets against Nadal like he did against Federer in the 2019 Wimbledon Final, I think Nadal would've pulled out the match. There, I've given Nadal some credit.
airchallenge2
Hall of Fame
Wow. You do have a lot of free time on your hands. It should be put to better use.
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Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah, I think Djokovic playing so many matches against him from 2015-2016 (seven in both years) certainly lends him an advantage.
But let's not also forget how their rivalry is skewed towards clay. They've played seven matches at RG. Seven! In fact, they've played eight matches across all three other Slams combined. In addition to that, the two Masters tournaments at which they've met the most often are Monte-Carlo and Rome (and if you consider Hamburg and Madrid to be lumped together, then that makes three).
In total, they've played 24 matches on clay and 27 on hard courts. Just a three-match difference despite the hard court season being so much longer. Much of this is due to Nadal's own inconsistency on hard courts.
If you want to look at meetings per year, then the difference isn't so massive either.
2006: 1
2007: 5
2008: 6
2009: 7
2010: 2
2011: 6
2012: 4
2013: 6
2014: 3
2015: 4
2016: 3
2017: 1
2018: 2
2019: 2
2020: 1
2009 with seven meetings sticks out here.
But let's not also forget how their rivalry is skewed towards clay. They've played seven matches at RG. Seven! In fact, they've played eight matches across all three other Slams combined. In addition to that, the two Masters tournaments at which they've met the most often are Monte-Carlo and Rome (and if you consider Hamburg and Madrid to be lumped together, then that makes three).
In total, they've played 24 matches on clay and 27 on hard courts. Just a three-match difference despite the hard court season being so much longer. Much of this is due to Nadal's own inconsistency on hard courts.
If you want to look at meetings per year, then the difference isn't so massive either.
2006: 1
2007: 5
2008: 6
2009: 7
2010: 2
2011: 6
2012: 4
2013: 6
2014: 3
2015: 4
2016: 3
2017: 1
2018: 2
2019: 2
2020: 1
2009 with seven meetings sticks out here.
daggerman
Hall of Fame
Who cares? They're 2 of the 5 or so best tennis players who ever lived. That's good enough.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
BackhandDTL
Hall of Fame
Meh idk. All that is confusing and overthinking.
the bottom line is simply his aggressiveness goes to **** against Nole off of clay.
It’s so wild because nowadays I think his backhand CC is better as an attacking shot than Nole’s is and he can go DTL with it unlike before (Nole’s is more reliable though) and he still has a fantastic forehand. His serve is comparable to Novak’s imo.
he just plays too conservatively off of clay.
the bottom line is simply his aggressiveness goes to **** against Nole off of clay.
It’s so wild because nowadays I think his backhand CC is better as an attacking shot than Nole’s is and he can go DTL with it unlike before (Nole’s is more reliable though) and he still has a fantastic forehand. His serve is comparable to Novak’s imo.
he just plays too conservatively off of clay.
Crazy Finn
Hall of Fame
You're basically telling Don Quixote to give it up with the windmills, but it's worth saying....
It has had an effect on me. Basically - If it takes this much work to make someone look better, they're probably not better.
BlueB
Legend
stringertom
Bionic Poster
Now that The Nadal has ditched the Cinci/USO It will be over seven years since he has taken one set vs Joe Kovic on the most played surface on the ATP Tour. No wonder he has such an itchy backside!
Ehh, Nadal still has 9-6 in slams, so while you could argue Nadal should be ahead or at least dead even in the overall H2H if their meetings during their respective worst patches were more fairly distributed, Nadal still has supreme bragging rights that he owns Djokovic on the very biggest of stages.
Federer's worst patch: 2013-early 2014, Fedal meetings - 5
Nadal's worst patch (as per you) :- march 2015 - june 2016, Fedal meetings - 1
Ouuch !!!!
Backspin1183
Talk Tennis Guru
What the heck happened to your previous account?
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Who cares? Nadal is more epic and has more slems
Here is the thread that summarizes their rivalry in past 9 years (22-10 in favor of Novak)
Too long for the worst period to last
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
Dude Nadal got out of his slump in 2017 and he still can't beat Djokovic outside of clay to this day.
Don't tell me that it's an accident when Djokovic hasn't lost to Nadal outside of clay/grass for over 7 years and if you discount Canada/US Open 2013 that makes it 10 YEARS.
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Hitman
Bionic Poster
Here is the thread that summarizes their rivalry in past 9 years (22-10 in favor of Novak)
Too long for the worst period to last
Some brutal numbers there.
I think Nadal is still greater because of better longevity and that he has more slam titles, but Djokovic has certainly owned him over the last decade.
junior74
Talk Tennis Guru
RS
Bionic Poster
With you .
Subway Tennis
Legend
Yeah it's skewed a little bit by the time periods you mentioned, and Nadal is my favourite too, but on hardcourt I feel that Djokovic has had control of the rivalry for a while now.
I much preferred it when their rivalry was defined by swings of momentum when one player was wrestling control from the other across all surfaces.
Whenever Nadal plays Djokovic on a hardcourt now it feels like there is a mental edge for Djokovic and Nadal struggles in areas where he doesn't against any other players.
The ideal situation would be if Nadal could slay his mental demons in the matchup the same way Federer has late in his career against Rafa.
And Nadal rightly leads the Slam H2H, 9-6.
Which is more important. People think Wawrinka is Djokovic's kryptonite just because he's beaten him a few times at slams, when Djokovic pretty much owns him H2H outside of slams.The big matches are more important, and Nadal has 'em.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
You and I have been over this already.
Not the Wawrinka/Djokovic aspect, which really crystallises and contextualises just how much slam H2H matters than other tour match H2H stats. No one cares that Djokovic owns the overall H2H by a ridiculous degree against Stan (19-6 or something like that?). People just know that their slam H2H is 4-4 and Stan is a real bannana skin to Djokovic at slams. Which is why people talk about Stan as a "kryptonite" for a player who owns him in routine tour matches. Just a little bit more added context as to why 9-6 is the more important H2H stat. A stat I'll be surprised if Djokovic ever manages to even up or overturn.
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itrium84
Hall of Fame
Yeah, Nadal is historically much better than Novak in "woulda" h2h. He also leads in "shoulda" and "coulda" categories. Some say Nadal won more than 30 woulda and coulda GS titles, that's impressive. I greatly respect those achievements.
I also give some value to their real h2h, the real matches they played.
Sent from my Mi 9T using Tapatalk
wawa vs nole is 4-4 in GS matches and 6-19 overall.
rafas and noles h2h are massively clay misleading. 29 - 26, but 7-17 (44% of all matches) on cley. at the same time, there are only 4 of 14 (29%) most important tournaments on clay. it is 20-7 (49%) on HC, despite the fact that 9 of the 14 (60%) biggest tournaments are played on that surface.
their GS h2h is even more clay affected. 6-9 (4-4 in finals) of which 7 are RG matches (47%). so they had almost half matches at raffa's best slam, which is twice as many as expected. at the same time, only 2 matches (13%) have been played on nole's favorite slam, which is only half as expected.
so what if they had only played 2 RG matches and 7 AO matches?
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mike danny
Bionic Poster
Nadal did run away from Fed in 2015 while feasting on a poor Fed in 2013-early 2014. So it's oy fair that Nadal gets to experience that with Djokovic.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Four meetings in 2013 versus just one in 2015 etc...as well.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
I've already given you Borg v McEnroe examples....no one says 3-1 McEnore, everyone says 7-7
I also gave you Sampras v Agassi examples - no one says 6-3 Sampras, everyone says 20-14
So you haven't really given me anything new. The reason why Wawrinka is getting mentioned is that he has had a run of wins recently against Djokovic in slams, he's won the last three, most notably he got two slam final wins against him....but if you look at Nadal v Djokovic both are locked at 4-4 in slam final wins also. So you can still keep giving me 9-6, and I will retort that in the actual biggest matches they have played, which is slam finals its 4-4 and I have given you two examples of defining rivalries of past eras in which it is the overall H2H that is mentioned, so again...there is nothing new here from you to me.
Not a good excuse. His fans like to claim Djokovic is the "hardcourt GOAT" and a far superior hardcourt player to Nadal. If that is the case, he should never have lost 2 US Open finals to Rafa. Those were his big chances to keep the slam H2H nearly even on his preferred surface, and he blew it.
Rafa is just the better big match player, regardless of surface.
- All finals: Djokovic, 15 (+ATP Cup) –11
- Grand Slam finals: Tied, 4–4
- Tennis Masters Cup/ATP World Tour Finals finals: Djokovic, 1–0
- ATP Masters Series/ATP World Tour Masters 1000 finals: Djokovic, 7–6
- + ATP cup final: Djokovic 1-0
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RaulRamirez
Legend
You may call this contextualizing, buy very rare is the poster who can do this objectively. Regardless of age, all matches and achievements count - excuses, not so much.
Grand Slam matches: 9-6
Sorry, but slams are the biggest matches, regardless of rounds. It's nice for Djokovic if he beat Rafa in some less important tournaments, but these guys are truly judged by their slam performances. And though it's not a slam, and by definition less important, Djokovic and Nadal both seem to value Olympic Singles Gold more than any non-slam title.
Olympics : 1-0 Nadal (on a hardcourt no less).
skypadq
Hall of Fame
2010 us open final and 2013 us open final is not remember for you ?
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