2018 US Open Quarter-final - Rafael Nadal (1) vs Dominic Thiem (9)

[Artanis]

I don't think he's too disturbed with the match.

I would really hope so, but I have some worries...
Thiem: "It’s Going To Be Stuck In My Mind Forever"
https://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/thiem-reaction-us-open-2018-tuesday2

 

[Meles]

Thiem showed the world how he shrank the gap between him and the greatest players out there. This will give him confidence. This feels a lot like the 2013 USO semi between Stan and Djokovic. Stan was 28 years old at the time and he pushed peak Djokovic to 5 tough sets.

Thiem reminds me of Stan in that he can bash the ball from both wings while also serving big. Thiem can hit through the best humans on a slow surface(Nadal on slow clay isn't human, he's a cyborg there). If he stays healthy, I see Thiem having a peak that mimics Stan's. And I like this kid. I am a fan of his. I don't like how the haters keep bashing Thiem. He is a very good player that has showed remarkable improvement lately. Also, it's disrespectful to Rafa. We need to give credit where credit is due. Rafa put forth yet another Herculean effort to scrape out a well-deserved victory. I have no idea how he keeps doing this. He is quite the beast physically. He is the type of athlete that could have played just about any sport with his massive physique.

We need to all appreciate this era. It is incredible what the Big 3 have accomplished. And there's no need to bash any of their accomplishments. Rafa deserved the 2017 USO title, along with all of his other titles. Rafa proved that last night and has proven this throughout his entire career. The same holds true for Federer and Djoker. They all earned their slam titles fair and square. Let's stop with the excuses and the bashing of others that are a threat just enjoy our favorite player's accomplishments. Because there is a ton of great moments to pick from when it comes to the Big 3. And Rafa isn't even close to being my favorite player. But I understand why he is a favorite for many. He's a class act and he's the ultimate warrior.

And lastly, I think that Thiem and eventually Khachanov will be tough obstacles for Rafa and Djoker. Khachanov has also improved immensely and he's still very young. And they also have a massive age advantage on Rafa. Rafa will have to continue to be the ultimate warrior if he hopes to pass Federer. This chase is yet another one that will have me on the edge of my seat. I really hope that Federer can somehow bag another slam. But if he doesn't and Rafa wins the slam count 21-20, then I will concede the argument. Rafa will have earned the title.

Loved your post except for the big 3/4 fan wars over history, but just find that whole subject a bit boring and repetitive. Excellent post!

 

[Meles]

I understand your frustration.
And I would have felt the same if this was a match won by Federer.
But despite Thiem .....

I understand that we're worried that as soon as these guys leave we won't get the same enjoyment from tennis, and that's why we're angry with the Thiem's, Zverev's, Kyrgios, etc.

But perhaps we're asking too much, very probably players of the caliber of Nadal, Djoko, Fed, etc won't happen in a long time.

You're angry with Thiem after this match?

 

[Tshooter]

I would really hope so, but I have some worries...
Thiem: "It’s Going To Be Stuck In My Mind Forever"
https://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/thiem-reaction-us-open-2018-tuesday2

I saw the video of the interview and I don’t take that line as indicative of some perpetual haunting.

I think this will be a positive loss insofar as he’ll take confidence from it rather than it harming his psyche. He’s physically and mentally tougher than the rest of NextGen. He has the tools. He will win Majors.

 

[heninfan99]

 

[Meles]

Had to go to sleep after the 3rd. Woke up to the result.

Huge respect for Thiem. Could have easily let it go in the 4th.

But dude, work on your volleys, little dinks inside the service line, and overheads. That volley at the end of the 3rd - you had 90% of the court - no need to cut it nearly that much.

The worst volleying I've seen from Thiem by a wide margin in the early going that you saw. He got it together at the end of the match a bit better, but I'd say virtually no match play since RG had Thiem a bit rusty at net. He rarely got in against Anderson as well given his ultra deep return position and the non-stop barage of depth from KA.

 

[RS]

But yeah, bringing up doping is ridiculous and should not be done.

I don't believe Nadal is doping and no one should even suggest it as it's not cool at all. Especially since it's no evidence.

Not saying he is but I am a massive fan but he is a athlete. They all have a right to be accused proof or not I would say. It is not a certain for sure though. But we do have to wonder how are pros doing so well in their 30s when in past eras they were not. A lot of people think Nadal was protected by the Spainsh courts as Fuentes offered to give the names of the blood pages but they strangely declined it.
However Nadal did actually say he wanted the names revealed.
Guys like Armstrong have forced a bit of obsession in people’s mind with PEDs in sport.

 

[Meles]

Let's be honest. Thiem played away much better than Nadal. Could win in 3 set, or 4.
I think Thiem lost it not Nadal won it.

I think you meant sets 2 and 3 as Thiem won 4, no?

This is a very fair point as Thiem was horrible on this surface serving out in 2nd half of 2017, beyond belief really. He did better than last year in those games, but with Nadal pressing and red hot just one mistake is all it takes and Thiem provided. Thiem still with some psychological scarring and I pray they review the shot selection. Last year the problem appeared to be going for too much off of a solid return by the opponent. When Thiem was younger and in smaller events with lesser players he's been able to pull off the miracle shots with this approach on serve. He's learning, but not there yet. Thiem did break back late a lot in this match so its much more technical/shot selection on his own serve game.

 

[Incognito]

Rafa won the match by making his opponent miss a smash. I remember him doing this to another player.

 

[NoleFam]

See posts above for the errors of your way. Please stop with the nonsense.

What nonsense? I know you can handle a little criticism of your boy. He outplayed Nadal for most of the match. He should have closed out that third set when he served for it but a double fault and overhitting on two backhand crosscourt shots was costly. Nadal goaded him into trying to go for too much and he fell for it. Had he closed out that set like he should have, that could changed the whole trajectory of the match.

 

[zep]

He is trying to place the ball, but his serve has no pace. Also if you watch the patterns carefully, his usually BODY serve and the one that comes in fast to the forehand of both sides of the court, are not effective enough. Mainly because he doesn't have enough confidence nor does he generate enough pace. Those were also big weapons for Rafa. There is a 8-10 mph 1st serve speed difference in Nadal of 2018 UsOpen vs Nadal of 2013 and even more vs Nadal of 2010.

I don't know what the strategy of the Nadal camp is or if there is a physical issue. But clearly the slow serving of clay, is not working for Rafa anywhere really. He is just getting broken all the time, cannot consolidate breaks and puts a lot of pressure on the rest of his ground game. Also his ROS is just getting worse. He had to go all the way back (clay style) to return Thiem's serve. When he was standing up in set 1, he could hardly get any serves back in play.

So yeah, Rafa will have it very tough against Delpo or Djokovic. Especially if he gets to Djokovic, who used to even break Rafa when he was serving well. With this serving performance, I don't know how Nadal will manage to hold at all against Novak.

2010 was an outlier, he had a completely different service motion but he couldn't sustain it because it messed up his shoulder. He used it for like one tournament after the US open (Tokyo) and then went back to his normal service motion. He served well in 2013, with average serve speeds of ~114-115 mph, last year too his serve speeds were in that range. This year it's down by 3-4 mph on average. Del Potro is not an elite returner. He gets a lot of balls in play but the quality of his returns is not top class. So Nadal's ground game would decide how he plays his service games. Djokovic is a completely different proposition though as he can easily destroy Nadal's serve.

 

[metsman]

If good means slam-winning caliber, than yes, Thiem isn't that outside of clay. That's strict, though.

not even. I don't see why a good version of Berdych/Tsonga/Gonzalez/Blake couldn't have won last night. Even a guy like davydenko/Nalbandian would have a shot except his serve would make it a bit harder. Wouldn't be a guarantee for any of those guys, but I think they could take advantage of Nadal's floating better than Thiem did.

 

[La Grande]

Nadal only loses these kinds of matches against Djokovic.

And Pouille and Verdasco and Fognini unfortunately.

 

[metsman]

Wasn't far from that at Wimbledon, we'll see.

conditions were much friendlier at Wimby (although Friday night the weather won't be bad). Both guys more comfortable on this surface, but yeah Delpo has to serve like that again basically unless Nadal comes out flat and spots him a set or a set and a break. This is probably delpo's best shot to win that second slam though.

 

[AndyM]

I don't care how big of a matchup dalpo and Nadal is joke against Chile man will be seconds because you need to give those guys as much rest as possible before their semi-final encounter

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Poor Lucas. So near and so far.

 

[Meles]

I don't disagree with you. But you have to admit Thiem played FAR above his usual level throughout the match.
Did you see his clutch serving? He had so many aces and hit so many service winners. Sure, part of that is driven by Nadal's sub-optimal ROS, but still when Rafa is standing so far back, it's not easy to ace him or to hit serve winners. Thiem was also NOT missing much. Sometimes not even on big points. The backhand was deadly, and I haven't even see Stan hit so big with one handed backhand. Not to mention he was as fit as a fiddle and running around like a bunny.

We think of Thiem as a brainless ball basher who chokes on big points. And yes, he did choke on some big points. But he also played really well and made a lot of crazy winners and impossible gets, which he doesn't usually. Everyone chokes on big points. Even Nadal choked on a few ( the sitter backhand retun on 30-40 bp in 5th set for instance). And so does Federer.

Overall it was a great match, and given Nadal was not at his best, Rafa had to use all his experience and some luck to prevail. Also the law of averages, he lost a close one to Nole in Wimbledon, so perhaps he was due here..

I think it was pretty clear that Nadal was fatiguing badly from 4th set ownwards. He didn't show it, but it was plain. His groundies started landing short. He was late on his footwork. The explosiveness of the first step came down, so he would be late and out of position especially when changing direction. Nadal had ramped up to a high level in set 3. If he had not been tired in set 4, the match would have been over then. No excuses at all, it was Nadal's problem that he played so much before, so that he got tired.
I was pleasantly surprised by Thiem. Played far above his usual level and didn't tire nor waver. Very impressive.



I'm personally not so sure about Nadal's chances against Delpo. Last year, he was playing much better in the UsOpen. This year, his serve has just been weak. He cannot consolidate breaks. Keeps on getting under pressure on his serve almost each game, and that effects the rest of his ground game as well. He hardly gets ANY service winners or aces. He served like 2 in a close to 5 hour match. That is just ridiculous. Recall, how many free points he used to get on serve in 2013 and 2010.

Anyway, Delpo would be a tough nail for Rafa to crack. The Argentinian is stronger mentally than Thiem and also hits much bigger.
But regardless of what happens, even if Nadal gets through, Djoko will absolutely pulverize him in the final. Rafa would have a very very hard time holding serve against Djoko, when all of these other players are breaking him left and right.

Good stuff. As you can imagine I'm a veteran Thiem watcher so allow me to enlighten on what Thiem was doing in this match on return which was really amazing:
Set 1. Thiem started the match with his typical deep hard court return bunting (returns up close for the bunt) and even on 2nd serve for the most part. He was wildly successful against a coldish Nadal as the time taken away was enough to get Nadal hitting shorter. (Aside: This result was a beautiful mauling which shows what Thiem can do against lesser players or those off. Thiem 100% of first serve points in the first set and allowed Nadal only 7 points. He did similar to Nishikori at RG where a cold Kei won only one return point in the first two sets. Thiem also blanked Anderson for the first two sets pretty much this year at US Open. And then he mauled Delpo last year in that great US Open match for the first two sets. Baseline domination of the highest order.)
Set 2. Nadal came out much, much stronger near the start of the 2nd and started moving much, much better with excellent aggression from the ground. Thiem's return style in the first was not working as well because of this and he started varying return position (going back deep to run around and hit heavy forehands). Overall this return approach was not working and this was despite Nadal still be clearly tight on serve and not hitting it all that hard (average serve speed for set was 101 mph).
Set 3 and beyond. Thiem went with a return style I've never really seen him do much of before. He was trying to crush 2nd returns (something he definitely added to his game in early 2018, but sparingly used). But this quickly morphed into Thiem standing up close on return and trying to hit hard over every ball to take maximum time from Nadal. A lot of these shots were a tad blocky off the backhand of course, but he upped the return pressure immensely and the seeds of this probably started with his late break of Nadal in the 2nd. Nadal responded to this with much, much bigger serving that was clearly on par with his 2017 serving performance. Average serve speed hit 107 mph in set 3 dwindling to 104 mph by the fifth. Nadal served extremely well in sets 3-5 and Thiem had the best returning of his career during this period and more importantly it was different from what he's done in the past. Perhaps you thought Nadal's serve was not great because of the Thiem returning, but it was some of his highest quality in my mind. I'd love to have mph stats from 2017 US Open on Nadal, but I don't see them available any more.

Nadal was a deer in the headlights the first set, but I'll disagree with you and say that matches his best on hard courts in 2017 and as I think about it more. I think Nadal's level in sets 3-5 was higher than anything in 2017 where he did not face great competition at the US Open.

Understanding the greatness of Thiem's adjustments on return I think brings into focus just how well Nadal had to play in this match. Nadal's ground game starting in set 2 had Thiem under tremendous pressure. Thiem was forced to go really, really big from the ground or he would have been wiped out in every neutral rally. It was an amazing turn around by Nadal who was getting wiped out in neutral rallies. Nadal returned Thiem's first serve beautifully from set 2 onwards and had Thiem under immense pressure. Thiem's 2nd serving for this match was surprising heroic given the dire situation in the neutral rallies with Nadal. It was an amazing performance by both.

I agree 100% with you on Nadal tired at the end of the 4th and beyond. Unfortunately he didn't drop much. His serving still had plenty of sting and high percentage for how hard he was serving. Thiem also was gassed by early in the fifth. You could see it in his biggest strokes where he just didn't have the same control, but luckily settled into some tired, but loose slugging that kept him in the match. One great thing for Thiem is despite being punch drunk he found some first serves especially under pressure. Both played worse in the 5th and were leaking a few errors, but still it was a tremendous battle to the last gasp (that overhead.)

 

[Pablo1989]

Why are there so many empty seats?

Yankees don't like tennis

 

[mightyrick]

This match really isn't different than many other Nadal matches. I watched Thiem's press conference and honestly, it was like a repeat of many other players before.

It comes down to one thing... to beat Nadal... you absolutely must win the critical points. Both your own set points as well as defending set points against you. You cannot fail or you lose. I've heard Thiem's story from uncountable other players... Gulbis, Djokovic, Dimitrov, Tsonga, Goffin, Isner, on and on and on. This is nothing new.

You have to step on Nadal's neck and finish the job because the guy will not beat himself. He will not pull a Roddick in 2009 Wimbledon. You have to have a robotic, sociopathic mindset in that moment. You have to become Soderling, 2011+ Djokovic, Davydenko, Federer. Your mindset must be that you are going to kill him on the court. The aforementioned guys all have the mindset of an on-court serial killer.

Anything less and you will lose. Thiem needs that mindset. Hell, a bunch of the top next-gen players need that mindset.

 

[abmk]

You're trying way too hard here kid. It was far from an easy smash and allowing it to bounce would have resultied in an even FARTHER striking position for Dominic, perhaps beyond the baseline depending on his timing, something you would realize if you understood the game.

no. He was in b/w service line and baseline. If he had allowed it to bounce, he'd be a step back or two (which wouldn't be behind the baseline)
>>> but since you are clueless about tennis , you kep BSing.

you can continue having your head up you know where and keep defending thiem's easy missed smash >>> you look even more pathetic than usual.

But then what else can be expected from a guy who has a username weakera.

 

[Meles]

I'm personally not so sure about Nadal's chances against Delpo. Last year, he was playing much better in the UsOpen. This year, his serve has just been weak. He cannot consolidate breaks. Keeps on getting under pressure on his serve almost each game, and that effects the rest of his ground game as well. ....
Anyway, Delpo would be a tough nail for Rafa to crack. The Argentinian is stronger mentally than Thiem and also hits much bigger.
But regardless of what happens, even if Nadal gets through, Djoko will absolutely pulverize him in the final. Rafa would have a very very hard time holding serve against Djoko, when all of these other players are breaking him left and right.

The proof will be in the pudding with what Rafa does the rest of the way. Delpo is undoubtedly more rested this year and at a higher level. I doubt Nadal will come out cold like with Thiem and also Delpo last year. If Nadal wipes out Delpo in three then we know his level is high and game on for the final. Djoko knows how to play Nadal for sure, but remember he struggled at Cincy with a lot of three setters. Djoko's stamina was very questionable just a short while ago so Nadal could easily beat him pretty badly towards the end of a long 4 or 5 setter. Given the amount of play so far Nadal must wipe out Delpo and I suspect his team is well aware. Looking forward to what unfolds.

 

[VoodooChild24]

Rafa won the match by making his opponent miss a smash. I remember him doing this to another player.

It was an amazing last point if you really think of it and brilliant tactic. He just returned a HUGE 125mph serve from Thiem and chased his forehand CC countering with a lob.

At that moment, tennis players think not to shank the smash on match point (on center court).

 

[Gary Duane]

The proof will be in the pudding with what Rafa does the rest of the way. Delpo is undoubtedly more rested this year and at a higher level. I doubt Nadal will come out cold like with Thiem and also Delpo last year. If Nadal wipes out Delpo in three then we know his level is high and game on for the final. Djoko knows how to play Nadal for sure, but remember he struggled at Cincy with a lot of three setters. Djoko's stamina was very questionable just a short while ago so Nadal could easily beat him pretty badly towards the end of a long 4 or 5 setter. Given the amount of play so far Nadal must wipe out Delpo and I suspect his team is well aware. Looking forward to what unfolds.

Nadal's getting through the next match quickly will be hugely important. But his extra day off will be very helpful. He is getting essentially two days rest. Novak will only have one day of rest, and as you say his stamina is still questionable. HOWEVER: He made it through the nightmare day heat, and the weather will be cooler.

 

[borg number one]

What a match! Blistering rallies.

 

[helterskelter]

The proof will be in the pudding with what Rafa does the rest of the way. Delpo is undoubtedly more rested this year and at a higher level. I doubt Nadal will come out cold like with Thiem and also Delpo last year. If Nadal wipes out Delpo in three then we know his level is high and game on for the final. Djoko knows how to play Nadal for sure, but remember he struggled at Cincy with a lot of three setters. Djoko's stamina was very questionable just a short while ago so Nadal could easily beat him pretty badly towards the end of a long 4 or 5 setter. Given the amount of play so far Nadal must wipe out Delpo and I suspect his team is well aware. Looking forward to what unfolds.

It's not just about stamina. We know something about Nadal's level right now already: it is not at all high by his standards. The extra day off will definitely help, not just with regard to fitness, but also getting his level up closer to where it needs to be. Djokovic often and Del Potro occasionally have demolished him on hard courts. If he doesn't improve his level, I can't see a match against Djokovic being close enough for him to take advantage of a stamina advantage. Wiping out Del Potro quickly is not only important in terms of stamina but also and I think more importantly in showing that he's found a higher level.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

You have to step on Nadal's neck and finish the job because the guy will not beat himself. He will not pull a Roddick in 2009 Wimbledon. You have to have a robotic, sociopathic mindset in that moment. You have to become Soderling, 2011+ Djokovic, Davydenko, Federer. Your mindset must be that you are going to kill him on the court. The aforementioned guys all have the mindset of an on-court serial killer.

Nadal UE'd end of the 4th set away in worse fashion than that, actually.

 

[helterskelter]

Nadal's getting through the next match quickly will be hugely important. But his extra day off will be very helpful. He is getting essentially two days rest. Novak will only have one day of rest, and as you say his stamina is still questionable. HOWEVER: He made it through the nightmare day heat, and the weather will be cooler.

Not just cooler, but also possibly wetter. Nadal playing Djokovic under the roof at the US Open on a cool day is if anything even worse for him than playing Djokovic under the roof at Wimbledon. And Nadal was playing really well at Wimbledon, whereas he hasn't played well so far at the US Open. I already regard Djokovic's defeat in the 2013 US Open final as one of the most disappointing results of his career. But unless Nadal finds a higher gear and/or the weather turns out not to be as forecast, Djokovic losing to him in the 2018 final would be considerably more disappointing for Djokovic. Even Del Potro should fancy his chances under the roof against Nadal, and Friday is forecast to be pretty rainy.

Of course, this is in large part premised on Nadal's form to date. As I just said to Meles, the two-day break's use is not just in terms of stamina but also finding better form.

 

[Meles]

What nonsense? I know you can handle a little criticism of your boy. He outplayed Nadal for most of the match. He should have closed out that third set when he served for it but a double fault and overhitting on two backhand crosscourt shots was costly. Nadal goaded him into trying to go for too much and he fell for it. Had he closed out that set like he should have, that could changed the whole trajectory of the match.

I'm referring to your hack job with the stats by including the first set.

I'm very open to discussion of Thiem's mistakes on serve at the end of set and its the one minor negative from a great match. I say minor because Thiem was effing horrible during the 2nd half of 2017 on hard serving out sets and matches, so I'm a little more forgiving and see him as getting over it for the most part.

Nadal didn't goad anything. He upped his game to try to break plain and simple. Thiem always goes big at the end of sets. He's done it his whole career. My guess is that against the very best on hard, he just can't get away with trying to go quite so big particularly off of good 2nd returns. He's learning. I don't think shot selection is quite the term as Thiem just needs to temper his game a bit. It would be stupid for him to go conservative at the tight end of sets because his greatness is his ability to find a higher level on these shots. Anyone who thinks Thiem is choking (like a Coric for example) should look at what Thiem is doing on return at the end of set by going bigger; he pretty much breaks at will or gets close with regularity.

 

[abmk]

I understand your frustration.
And I would have felt the same if this was a match won by Federer.
But despite Thiem 'choking', because not choking against a difficult player is kinda difficult, again you have to give credit to Nadal, he's old, his knees are garbage, when he does not coordinate well his plan B is running despite being a grandpa, and sometimes he still wins.

That accounts for something.

I understand that we're worried that as soon as these guys leave we won't get the same enjoyment from tennis, and that's why we're angry with the Thiem's, Zverev's, Kyrgios, etc.

But perhaps we're asking too much, very probably players of the caliber of Nadal, Djoko, Fed, etc won't happen in a long time.

nadal, djoko, fed calibre ?

these guys aren't even close to hewitt-roddick-safin-delpo-wawrinka-murray etc. calibre let alone nadal-djoko-fed calibre.

is that too much to ask ?

we've already had worst gen/fail gen (nishi-raonic-dimi gen) and thiem is now 25.

 

[mightyrick]

Nadal UE'd end of the 4th set away in worse fashion than that, actually.

Roddick's miscue had far worse consequences than Nadal's miss in the 4th last night. Nadal just had to play a 5th set. Roddick got to watch Federer put on his newly embroidered Wimbledon Nike championship jacket.

 

[weakera]

no. He was in b/w service line and baseline. If he had allowed it to bounce, he'd be a step back or two (which wouldn't be behind the baseline)
>>> but since you are clueless about tennis , you kep BSing.

you can continue having your head up you know where and keep defending thiem's easy missed smash >>> you look even more pathetic than usual.

But then what else can be expected from a guy who has a username weakera.

Two steps back would be behind the baseline, kiddo.

 

[abmk]

This match really isn't different than many other Nadal matches. I watched Thiem's press conference and honestly, it was like a repeat of many other players before.

It comes down to one thing... to beat Nadal... you absolutely must win the critical points. Both your own set points as well as defending set points against you. You cannot fail or you lose. I've heard Thiem's story from uncountable other players... Gulbis, Djokovic, Dimitrov, Tsonga, Goffin, Isner, on and on and on. This is nothing new.

You have to step on Nadal's neck and finish the job because the guy will not beat himself. He will not pull a Roddick in 2009 Wimbledon. You have to have a robotic, sociopathic mindset in that moment. You have to become Soderling, 2011+ Djokovic, Davydenko, Federer. Your mindset must be that you are going to kill him on the court. The aforementioned guys all have the mindset of an on-court serial killer.

Anything less and you will lose. Thiem needs that mindset. Hell, a bunch of the top next-gen players need that mindset.

both Nadal and Thiem choked far worse than Roddick's missed volley at Wim 09.
never mind that Roddick saved 6/7 BPs he faced, held serve until the last game, incl. when under pressure of sudden death for so long.
but hey lets bring that match up as some "example"

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Roddick's miscue had far worse consequences than Nadal's miss in the 4th last night. Nadal just had to play a 5th set. Roddick got to watch Federer put on his newly embroidered Wimbledon Nike championship jacket.

They still had three sets to play until 16-14 in the 5th
Quality (or lack thereof) doesn't depend on the final result.

 

[helterskelter]

@Meles: Thiem played very well for the most part and the encouraging thing for him, I think, is that he still has room for improvement. These days, making adjustments post-25 is certainly possible. As you discussed, Stan managed it when way older than Thiem is now. (Dimitrov is approaching the age where if he is to break through, his career arc will be Stan-esque. If Thiem made the Australian Open semis or final or won Roland Garros, he'd still be a lot younger). A few things I thought Thiem could work on:

1. Net work, as you mentioned.
2. Slicing the backhand more.
3. Shot selection. This is a big one. He still occasionally seems a bit wild, and overall his game is a little raw. For example, on at least three or four occasions in quick succession in the middle of set four, he was standing barely to left or right of the baseline T and decided to attempt a really tight-angled cross-court winner, only to end up missing the line. But the shot just wasn't really on, and it'd have been better to be more patient. Having more confidence in his net work would have a spillover effect here, as he could ghost in behind a less powerful but better angled shot in those positions. Even some of the shots that he made seemed to me inadvisable, as he would miss far more often than not in such situations.
4. Occasionally, he came under his backhand too much. It was overall good for him to play at night on hard courts rather than clay in the day so that Nadal couldn't get the ball up too high on his backhand. But sometimes he needed to come over the backhand more so as to minimize its likelihood of flying long.

Overall, he seemed faster, more nimble, and fitter than Nadal, all of which are impressive achievements. And he had the better of most of the driving baseline rallies. He was pretty good under pressure, but to be confident of beating Nadal, you don't want to have to rely on edging out a tight match. You need to be able to stamp him out long before. I think with some of those changes above, he would have a decent shot of doing that next time they play in a hard-court Slam.

 

[NoleFam]

I'm referring to your hack job with the stats by including the first set.

I'm very open to discussion of Thiem's mistakes on serve at the end of set and its the one minor negative from a great match. I say minor because Thiem was effing horrible during the 2nd half of 2017 on hard serving out sets and matches, so I'm a little more forgiving and see him as getting over it for the most part.

Nadal didn't goad anything. He upped his game to try to break plain and simple. Thiem always goes big at the end of sets. He's done it his whole career. My guess is that against the very best on hard, he just can't get away with trying to go quite so big particularly off of good 2nd returns. He's learning. I don't think shot selection is quite the term as Thiem just needs to temper his game a bit. It would be stupid for him to go conservative at the tight end of sets because his greatness is his ability to find a higher level on these shots. Anyone who thinks Thiem is choking (like a Coric for example) should look at what Thiem is doing on return at the end of set by going bigger; he pretty much breaks at will or gets close with regularity.

Fair enough.

Nadal did goad him into beating himself and that's what he did. Thiem hit a massive 128 mph serve down the middle at 5-3 30-40 and Nadal just chipped it back really short with no pace on it and what did Thiem do? He tried to bash another crosscourt backhand which he missed by 3 feet. There he got broken. He made two backhand errors like that in that game by trying to go for too much.

No one is saying he choked but hitting big like that at that point is not the way to go. Conservative is the way to go when you're break point down unless you have a clear shot for a winner. Thiem should have chipped that backhand for a dropshot since Nadal was 10 meters behind the baseline at that point and not go for another 95+ mph backhand. That actually does come down to shot selection and knowing when to pull back and play a safer shot. That's what he needs to learn.

 

[abmk]

Two steps back would be behind the baseline, kiddo.

no, it wouldn't be , clueless. It'd be right on the baseline.
Like I said, you can continue having your head up you know where and keep defending thiem's easy missed smash >>> you look even more pathetic than usual.

 

[abmk]

Roddick's miscue had far worse consequences than Nadal's miss in the 4th last night. Nadal just had to play a 5th set. Roddick got to watch Federer put on his newly embroidered Wimbledon Nike championship jacket.

Federer-Roddick had to play 3 more sets after that.
and Roddick was facing Roger freakin' Federer at his prime, confident , fresh off his RG victory.

Nadal was facing Thiem. so he got away with it.

even though Roddick was playing much better in his final than Nadal in his match yesterday.

 

[Sudacafan]

And Pouille and Verdasco and Fognini unfortunately.

Since 2017, when he got his mojo back, not any more.

 

[junior74]

Yankees don't like tennis

Too bad... It was a really good fight, and I thought it deserved a more intense atmosphere

 

[helterskelter]

Federer-Roddick had to play 3 more sets after that.
and Roddick was facing Roger freakin' Federer at his prime, confident , fresh off his RG victory.

Nadal was facing Thiem. so he got away with it.

even though Roddick was playing much better in his final than Nadal in his match yesterday.

Out of interest, do you think that Roddick played better in 2004 or in 2009? (In the Federer matches at Wimbledon). I think he certainly served better in 2009, but overall may well have played better in 2004. Federer certainly played better in the 2004 match.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

I was entertained.

 

[mightyrick]

Federer-Roddick had to play 3 more sets after that.
and Roddick was facing Roger freakin' Federer at his prime, confident , fresh off his RG victory.

Uh, I'm not talking about his missed volley. Not at all.

I'm talking about his serve at 15-14. First serve fault. Second serve went in, rallied a few times... and then Federer gives him a ball right up the middle that he shanks for the loss. Unforced error. The missed volley wasn't the bad one. That last unforced error off a ball in the middle of the court, though. That was terrible.

 

[Topspin Slice]

nadal, djoko, fed calibre ?

these guys aren't even close to hewitt-roddick-safin-delpo-wawrinka-murray etc. calibre let alone nadal-djoko-fed calibre.

is that too much to ask ?

we've already had worst gen/fail gen (nishi-raonic-dimi gen) and thiem is now 25.

I hate to defend Zverev, but he’s already won more masters than Delpo and Wawrinka put together

 

[abmk]

Out of interest, do you think that Roddick played better in 2004 or in 2009? (In the Federer matches at Wimbledon). I think he certainly served better in 2009, but overall may well have played better in 2004. Federer certainly played better in the 2004 match.

I think both were about the same level. But federer being worse in 2009 final probably allowed him to play better than he would have if he had to face Federer of 2004 final.

fh, return, movement (slightly) were better in 04.
serve,bh, net play were better in 09.

If I had to pick someone to play, I'd take 04 Roddick , mainly because of the better returning.

 

[helterskelter]

I think both were about the same level. But federer being worse in 2009 final probably allowed him to play better than he would have if he had to face Federer of 2004 final.

fh, return, movement (slightly) were better in 04.
serve,bh, net play were better in 09.

If I had to pick someone to play, I'd take 04 Roddick , mainly because of the better returning.

That's fair. The only one I'm not sure I agree on is backhand. But I haven't watched either match in a while.

It's mostly as it should be: both served better in the later match, as we should expect players to do, as they have had more time to practice and hone their technique. Both returned worse in the later match, as return relies more on reaction time, whereas serve is a stand-alone shot. It should be the case for most players that their return gets worse over time while their serve gets better. And it does often seem to be that way.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

The lost generation strikes again.

Fed was beating post prime Sampras and Agassi on the biggest stages in his early 20's. These guys can't beat the aging big 3 in the same scenarios.

You’re right but unfair to compare anyone to Fed.

Also, Nadal is the top ranked player in the world whereas Sampras had dropped off significantly in 2001.

 

[abmk]

Uh, I'm not talking about his missed volley. Not at all.

I'm talking about his serve at 15-14. First serve fault. Second serve went in, rallied a few times... and then Federer gives him a ball right up the middle that he shanks for the loss. Unforced error. The missed volley wasn't the bad one. That last unforced error off a ball in the middle of the court, though. That was terrible.

the last point was a forced error. federer's BH wasn't remotely close to the middle of the court. it was closer to the baseline than the service line.

watch after 1:50.

that shank probably made it look much worse than it was.

 

[Rina]

Honestly, Nadal is practically begging someone to beat him at this US Open and they all crumble down because they might have the game but are mental midgets. What happened to believe in yourself? Do they not understand the value of mental coaching? It is not a question of Big 3 superiority anymore but that Next Gen after Next Gen are incompetent, no mental fortitude babies. Thiem should have nightmare after nightmare after this match. Remember that serve return of Djokovic's against Federer at US Open 2011, that smirk and fu attitude?That took guts, these are all gutless.

 

[abmk]

I hate to defend Zverev, but he’s already won more masters than Delpo and Wawrinka put together

yeah, thanks to circumstances (compared to delpo atleast who's lost 3 hard fought masters finals).

In any case, Zverev is young. He still has time.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Thiem should have won that match. I’m still sulking.