Serena Williams
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Wilhelm
Hall of Fame
Exactly how I see it.
Well obviously she doesn't think she's settling. I'm not her spokesperson, just a commentator giving my opinion on him.
I just suspect he's a very average coach whose approach (in the psychological sense) happens to mesh well with her.
Boom-Boom
Legend
former umpire and ATP EVP:
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis...y-to-umpire-carlos-ramos-20180909-p502q2.html
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis...y-to-umpire-carlos-ramos-20180909-p502q2.html
ScentOfDefeat
G.O.A.T.
"Coaching should be allowed on every point"
But it isn't, and while that's the case, you have to follow those freaking rules or suffer the consequences.
I respect BJK for her past accomplishments, but this really is absurd.
It's like every time something negative happens to Serena, she imagines a different world where tennis has different rules to accommodate her.
Towser83
G.O.A.T.
Players do all the time though, both male and female. Most don't then push their luck a further 2 times. It has happened. Fognini got banned from the doubles last year after verbally abusing an umpire. But when Serena does it, it's sexism. Because apparently she is the only female player, or the only one that matters. If she was just like "this is not fair, others get away with it" she might have a bit of a point (though if you're at 2 violations you're really asking for it and calling the umpire and a thief is certainly begging for a third violation) but the whole sexism thing - nah sorry, stop playing the victim courtesy of the gender card
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
OMG... more examples of men having no understanding of women. So women have so much “emotional s—t” they have to deal with, that they can’t possibly accept a man who cries or shows “weakness.”
Those poor, misguided, weak, insecure women you speak about aren’t the kind you should be pursuing. I guess strong, educated professional women aren’t the kind you’ve ever met or dealt with. Or would a strong woman intimidate you?
r2473
G.O.A.T.
Federer could have easily been called for a code violation for his rant during the 2009 US Open final.
How would his fans reacted if he was?
West Coast Ace
G.O.A.T.
Exactly. The headline would have been ‘spoiled, entitled snowflake gets comeuppance from Japanese contender’.
And agree with the last part - Serena knew given her current lack of fitness and how well Osaka was playing she wasn’t going to turn the match around.
The second article which states that 24 male players have been fined for coaching in 5 years pretty much covers it in terms of whether women are singled out on this issue. I don't recall any of them calling for a retraction and apology from the umpire.
MatsPhilander
Legend
I cannot see calling any umpire a thief & a liar, demanding they say sorry for a violation already given & wagging your finger at them something that wouldn't be a violation-probably many umpires would be intimidated because of who she is & would have let it go, but thankfully she ran into somebody who has decades of experience & isn't one to be bullied into submission. The guy can be a bit of a stickler at times, but he is a fair umpire-even Serena says she has never had any prior issue with him at all & he likes a laugh with the players, along with trying to keep things calm & in a good spirit.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
They should make a VR from the umpire's POV.
With an extra plug-in when you can slowly pour some mexican saus on Serena's head while she's in the middle of her rant.
With an extra plug-in when you can slowly pour some mexican saus on Serena's head while she's in the middle of her rant.
The mainstream media seem to be supporting her appalling behaviour. They have an agenda to push - create division between the sexes citing discrimination as i am a woman.
Read this article - biased to the eighth degree.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/45463752
Read this article - biased to the eighth degree.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/45463752
abmk
Bionic Poster
Please post more of the text of the article in the opening post.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
She’s not in logic class.
She’s saying that:
1) If he was trying to coach her, she didn’t see it
2) If he was trying to coach her, it happens all the time (and everyone knows this). So why call it? Especially in a US Open final. And without any history (has Patrick been called in the past)?
Umpire should have given Patrick a “soft warning” first and not go straight to the code violation IMO.
A couple of minor details: Layhani isn't Kyrgios's coach, and what he did wasn't coaching. Coaching is technical or tactical advice..."hit it to their backhand," "go to the net more" etc. The coach is permitted to encourage competitive play which is what Lahyani was doing. Obviously he shouldn't have involved himself, but that's a separate issue.
ihitlikeagirl
Semi-Pro
among the many reasons serena's argument is flawed is that the rules are the rules. You can hope that you get to slide by unnoticed or get a soft warning or not get called on things that amount to code violations but you can't count on it. The enforcement is slightly subjective . I've seen that happen on both men's and women's side of the game.
Ramos, in my view, is a very by the book referee across the board where as some of the others are more "flexible". He is not flexible and defers to the rules. She knows the rules. And if little ol' me has figured out that he is a by the book ref, she as a top pro with a good coaching team should have figured it out as well and realized she was really taking her chances with violations 2 and 3. Plus I can't think of a time where once a ref has made a decision that it is changed. So would have been strategically smarted to STFU and play--assuming that was the point. I think she knew she was losing, about to lose and made it about all these other things (tantrum, fight for male/female equality, motherhood)--when in reality it is about none of those things. She acted like a spoiled brat and yep her daughter will see that. Don't know that this is better than her seeing "cheating". Both bad and not role model material. Love that Naomi just put her head down throughout these shenanigans and just won. Good for her!
Ramos, in my view, is a very by the book referee across the board where as some of the others are more "flexible". He is not flexible and defers to the rules. She knows the rules. And if little ol' me has figured out that he is a by the book ref, she as a top pro with a good coaching team should have figured it out as well and realized she was really taking her chances with violations 2 and 3. Plus I can't think of a time where once a ref has made a decision that it is changed. So would have been strategically smarted to STFU and play--assuming that was the point. I think she knew she was losing, about to lose and made it about all these other things (tantrum, fight for male/female equality, motherhood)--when in reality it is about none of those things. She acted like a spoiled brat and yep her daughter will see that. Don't know that this is better than her seeing "cheating". Both bad and not role model material. Love that Naomi just put her head down throughout these shenanigans and just won. Good for her!
You think?
I think they'll weather it. I think it would bother her tons if he went to work for someone else.
Perhaps the solution is to ban him from her matches from now on. Have him stay on as coach, but never in attendance for matches. Though I doubt any of that will happen.
ScentOfDefeat
G.O.A.T.
I could be wrong, but I very much doubt you'd hold the same position if the roles were reversed and Osaka was the "victim" of the umpire's supposed "sexism".
You would probably sing his praises.
prairiegirl
Hall of Fame
Perfectly stated!
Terenigma
G.O.A.T.
Ramos did his job.
However i think Serena does have a point when she said implied that ATP matches don't get the same scrutiny. We've seen coaching before in ATP matches and nothing gets done about it. Hell even Murray said that Verdasco was getting coaching off-court and the rules are not enforced consistently. It's not a sexism thing and it's certainly not a race thing (Classic media trying to turn it into that) it is simply that umpires are not enforcing the rules consistently and they need to OR get rid of the rule completely. How much of a difference can a few hand-signals make anyway? Just let everyone get coaching!
However i think Serena does have a point when she said implied that ATP matches don't get the same scrutiny. We've seen coaching before in ATP matches and nothing gets done about it. Hell even Murray said that Verdasco was getting coaching off-court and the rules are not enforced consistently. It's not a sexism thing and it's certainly not a race thing (Classic media trying to turn it into that) it is simply that umpires are not enforcing the rules consistently and they need to OR get rid of the rule completely. How much of a difference can a few hand-signals make anyway? Just let everyone get coaching!
True, and very well explained.
Zardoz7/12
Hall of Fame
"I will let the Serena haters / Ramos defenders try to spin that anyway they can" Why do these people politicize everything with this us vs them bs?
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Reem AbulleilVerified account @ReemAbulleil
Statement from USTA president Katrina Adams: ”What Serena did on the podium today showed a great deal of class and sportsmanship. This was Naomi's moment, and Serena wanted her to be able to enjoy it. That was a class move from a true champion.”
Seemed more like remorse and damage control rather than being a class act. But the hug at the conclusion of the match appeared to be genuine.
Fairhit
Hall of Fame
And the sexism approach, was she playing against a man? The race card, was she playing against a white player? She was playing against a woman who is half Japanese and half Haitian, what was it then? Motherism? Well that might have more Sense, after all, SHE HAS A DAUGHTER!
ohiostate124
Professional
/thread
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
And all those players or ex-players supporting Serena are also terrified that if they don’t support her, they’ll be called racist.
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
1. Her coach was clearly trying to get her to do something. Frankly watching it I have no idea what he wanted her to do. I took it as he wanted her to move Naomi around and then come forward herself however no one would know except him and Serena if Serena saw it an understood it. Don't know if she did it didnt look like she looked at him for long but who knows the way the cameras cut and pan during a match. However the chair saw him doing something and did something about it. Serena was given a warning. Maybe they need to revisit the rule and just have the coach removed in future
2. Serena after being given a warning chose to smash a racket after an emotional moment. She knew she had been given a warning and still did it. Not cool. She lost control, it was emotional but at the same time it's not like she hasn't been in pressure situations before.
3. She verbally went on and on about it. Frankly it was childish and ridiculous but something needed to be said to her. There was no reason for her to act the way she did in response to the Chair doing his job. She shouldnt have smashed the racket, period. She shouldn't have started demanding an apology and carrying on like she did. An official does not need to apologize for doing his job.
Trying to make Serena the victim here when she made some pretty poor choices over the course of events that lead to what happened is laughable. If she hadn't smashed her racket or thrown a temper tantrum nothing would have happened.
It's pretty sad that Naomi's win...WHICH SHE EARNED...is being questioned and ridiculed because of this. She went out and played her heart out against her idol, who she really wanted to play and respects and had to sit and watch all this and still keep her cool and win the match.
Seeing Naomi play as well as she did was amazing, especially given how much she admires Serena, it was her first major final and she had to be nervous. Shes the first from her country to win a major in singles right? And that's getting overshadowed with this nonsense.
2. Serena after being given a warning chose to smash a racket after an emotional moment. She knew she had been given a warning and still did it. Not cool. She lost control, it was emotional but at the same time it's not like she hasn't been in pressure situations before.
3. She verbally went on and on about it. Frankly it was childish and ridiculous but something needed to be said to her. There was no reason for her to act the way she did in response to the Chair doing his job. She shouldnt have smashed the racket, period. She shouldn't have started demanding an apology and carrying on like she did. An official does not need to apologize for doing his job.
Trying to make Serena the victim here when she made some pretty poor choices over the course of events that lead to what happened is laughable. If she hadn't smashed her racket or thrown a temper tantrum nothing would have happened.
It's pretty sad that Naomi's win...WHICH SHE EARNED...is being questioned and ridiculed because of this. She went out and played her heart out against her idol, who she really wanted to play and respects and had to sit and watch all this and still keep her cool and win the match.
Seeing Naomi play as well as she did was amazing, especially given how much she admires Serena, it was her first major final and she had to be nervous. Shes the first from her country to win a major in singles right? And that's getting overshadowed with this nonsense.
West Coast Ace
G.O.A.T.
D
Deleted member 293577
Guest
Just speculating, it hasn't even been 24 hours after what happened. You have a good point about it bothering her if he went elsewhere. But to admit that on national TV... I'd like to see how they clean up this PR nightmare. There may or may not be irreparable damage, I don't know enough about their relationship, whether or not they can weather the storm. I'd be surprised if it was an immediate firing though.
JoelDali
Talk Tennis Guru
LOL I guess this was "standing up against sexism" as well
Pot smoker. Red eyes.
SuperSpinner
Semi-Pro
you need to make a separate thread for this article.
Rabbit
G.O.A.T.
You must not have been watching tennis too terribly long. Where do we start?
Tennis behavior became "entertaining" with the advent of professionals. The godfather of bad behavior was Pancho Gonsales. His progeny were Ilie Nastase (who called him "Little Father", Jimmy Connors, and John McEnroe - all of whom Gonsales counseled/coached).
Jimmy Connors defaulted a match on 22NOV86 against Ivan Lendl after throwing a tirade at the chair. Obscenities, personal insults, etc etc (sound Serena-ish?) were thrown at the chair prior to Connors storming off court. He was fined and suspended.
Ilie Nastase was defaulted/reinstated in a match against John McEnroe at the US Open in 1979. He was wrongfully reinstated, IMO. The reinstatement was due, in my opinion, to a drunken night crowd that almost rioted.
John McEnroe was defaulted in a match versus Michael Pernfors at the Australian Open in 1990. On a side note, the match was held in January and McEnroe wasn't clear on when the new default sequence was implemented. He pushed too far ala Serena. McEnroe admitted he thought he had another step before default.
Here is one more:
SpeedySteve said:
These are just off the top of my head. I'm sure there have been more. To play the gender card is really proof of nothing other than ignorance of the sport. Williams knew her status in the match and knew one more misstep would result in a game penalty. The chair acted within the rules, Williams did not. Search the boards, the chair has been a strict enforcer of the rules regardless of gender. Not only did Williams call him a thief and a liar, she threatened him by saying he would never call another point of hers again.... Really? So the lunatics (pun intended) are running the asylum now?
West Coast Ace
G.O.A.T.
The BBC is so bad - earlier this year they were still showing pictures of Trayvon Martin as a 12 year old, not the hulking 18 yr old 6’1” 180lb MMA student with a police record.
a10best
Hall of Fame
She said the magic word sexism so they are flocking to her like she's Hillary. So pathetic.
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis...y-to-umpire-carlos-ramos-20180909-p502q2.html
McEnroe did the same in 1987 and was docked a game penalty.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content...B6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.PNG?imwidth=450
Not biased in the UK
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis...y-to-umpire-carlos-ramos-20180909-p502q2.html
McEnroe did the same in 1987 and was docked a game penalty.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content...B6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.PNG?imwidth=450
Not biased in the UK
This is BBC and the others are some US media. Do you think that it is possible that some more important topics (like what Russia does, China, North Korea etc) are distorted in a similar way?
mellowyellow
Legend
Wondering if he was removed so quickly for his own safety... That's what is a shame. Doing his job, applying rules without bias and doesn't get to partake of the celebration because of possible violence.
ScentOfDefeat
G.O.A.T.
She also needs to voice an extremely unpopular opinion - that there should be coaching for women at Slams, which is a proposal for differentiated treatment, not gender equality - to get to that strange, irrational place where she can defend Williams. This is ideology or cult of personality trumping rationality. She needs to go against her self-professed beliefs in order to amass a few virtue signalling points.
West Coast Ace
G.O.A.T.
Sorry, that wasn’t an ‘outburst’. An outburst is an F-bomb or one phrase. She went in a 15 minute tirade. And we all know why: she woke up Saturday thinking Osaka would ‘just be happy to be there’ and be a cakewalk. Instead Osaka was taking Serena’s pace and returning it with interest. Once Serena knew she was going to get destroyed she lost it.
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