Open Tennis Serve

[oserver]

To be fair, you probably have an ingrained "normal continental/ebh grip serve", always hard to break a old "habit"
I'll go on a limb saying, that the efh grip serve must be hit below a certain racquet head speed kinda like training wheels on a bike... not recommended above certain speeds.

Slightly serious question to folks teaching... if a beginner comes to you and says, i want to learn a serve, which requires a minimal investment in time,... what do you teach them?
I'm torn between:
* underhand/sidespin serve (which is pretty effective even at the low 4.5 level)
* eastern fh grip - which allows a bit more spin than the western/frying pan serve - which IMO is effective, especially when placed consistently to the bh wing, up to the 4.0 level

The continental/ebh grip serve clearly has advantages if you want to get past a certain serving level (say 4.0), but for me, anway, has required ALOT of investment in time & practice.

Thoughts?

PS. I would only recommend the 360 spin if i didn't like the student... and i would definitely film
PPS. I lol, everytime I see the trashiest idea threads, always get the most attention (1344 comments and rising!)... kinda like junk food, or junk tv... it's like comforting to make myself feel better that someone knows less than me about <fill in topic>

Remember, the semi-western or full-western grip for forehand is a signature of modern tennis. In the good-old days, the continental or eastern forehand grip for forehand lasted a hundred years or more. The evolution of serves lagged behind forehand. That doesn't mean the dominate of continental serve grip will last forever. You guys cannot point out anything why eastern forehand or semi-western grip cannot produce good serves, just like the forehand shots. Our shoulder is very flexible to handle the low, middle and high shots, whether it is brushing the ball low to high or high to low.

 

[BlueB]

You guys cannot point out anything why eastern forehand or semi-western grip cannot produce good serves, just like the forehand shots.

Really? How about you show us a video of a top spin serve with Semi-Western FH grip?

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[Deleted member 23235]

Remember, the semi-western or full-western grip for forehand is a signature of modern tennis. In the good-old days, the continental or eastern forehand grip for forehand lasted a hundred years or more. The evolution of serves lagged behind forehand. That doesn't mean the dominate of continental serve grip will last forever. You guys cannot point out anything why eastern forehand or semi-western grip cannot produce good serves, just like the forehand shots. Our shoulder is very flexible to handle the low, middle and high shots, whether it is brushing the ball low to high or high to low.

i absolutely believe that you very flexible shoulders that could accomplish this. can you please post more 360 vids demonstrating this? i might pay extra if you also dress up in a white bunny costume.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

He's slowly coming to his senses. Started with open stance spinning, that was proven silly, then he moved on to wrist extension, that was proven to be crazy, now he's just back to regular beginner's SW forehand grip reverse serving. I must call this an improvement!

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

Eastern forehand grip. Going from semiwestern to conti is hard, eastern to conti isn't. Also I know a computer rated 5.0 who serves with an eastern grip. A 60 year old magician.

When I try to maximize my 1st serve speed, I've noticed that I often instinctively move my grip towards eastern. Not sure if it's all the way.

 

[oserver]

When I try to maximize my 1st serve speed, I've noticed that I often instinctively move my grip towards eastern. Not sure if it's all the way.

Haha, it is your admission, not my preahing?! Sense gradually comes your way now, subconsciously?

 

[oserver]

He's slowly coming to his senses. Started with open stance spinning, that was proven silly, then he moved on to wrist extension, that was proven to be crazy, now he's just back to regular beginner's SW forehand grip reverse serving. I must call this an improvement!

Point out my "reverse serves" in the video, please.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

Point out my "reverse serves" in the video, please.

Serving with a SW grip must be a reverse serve. It's impossible to do it any other way. Reverse serve basically means that you swing across your body towards your left, rather than outwards to your right.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

Haha, it is your admission, not my preahing?! Sense gradually comes your way now, subconsciously?

I've always instinctively tended towards eastern forehand grip for my flat serves, nothing new there. I assume my subconscious goal is simply to minimise sidespin. Totally different from a sw forehand grip, which requires you to swing inwards, and produces reverse spin.

 

[BlueB]

Or high to low, like in OP's extended wrist "technique", which produces underpin, which is reverse from topspin...

Some good servers, Becker for example, moved grip slightly towards E FH, to flatten the 1st serve. Others, like Raonic, for 2nd, move slightly towards E BH, to increase topspin.
Note the key words: slightly, flatten, topspin.

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[Rubens]

The problem with the open serve is not lack of power, but lack of consistency. Can OP show us an unedited video of him hitting fast AND consistent open serves? (>60% serves in, all serves hitting the back fence after one bounce).

 

[GuyClinch]

Nah your isr/pronation is impeded with sw grip - just shadow it u will feel it.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

a 360 disciple

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154972033048732

 

[oserver]

Serving with a SW grip must be a reverse serve. It's impossible to do it any other way. Reverse serve basically means that you swing across your body towards your left, rather than outwards to your right.

"Serving with a SW grip must be a reverse serve. It's impossible to do it any other way." Wow, sounds like you are the expert?! Who taught you this? Anyone with a coach certificate? Name it or point a video to prove your saying has any value.

 

[oserver]

The problem with the open serve is not lack of power, but lack of consistency. Can OP show us an unedited video of him hitting fast AND consistent open serves? (>60% serves in, all serves hitting the back fence after one bounce).

Old video two month ago. Will post newer ones from later recordings.

 

[oserver]

Or high to low, like in OP's extended wrist "technique", which produces underpin, which is reverse from topspin...

Some good servers, Becker for example, moved grip slightly towards E FH, to flatten the 1st serve. Others, like Raonic, for 2nd, move slightly towards E BH, to increase topspin.
Note the key words: slightly, flatten, topspin.

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Can you point out the "underpin" serves from my video, which frame at what time?

 

[oserver]

I've always instinctively tended towards eastern forehand grip for my flat serves, nothing new there. I assume my subconscious goal is simply to minimise sidespin. Totally different from a sw forehand grip, which requires you to swing inwards, and produces reverse spin.

You can use eastern forehand grip for wrist extension tennis serves too (I used it earlier but change to semi-western grip since that is my my forehand grip). You can use continental grip too. Wrist extension serves is about techniques, not forms (no restriction to grip or stance). The main differences between wrist extension serves and conventional serves are:

WETS----------------------------------Conventional
-----------------------------------------------------------
Passive arm---------------------------proactive arm
Body leading arm/hand-------------Body leading arm/hand at beginning, then arm/hand takes the lead
Minimize wrist flexing--------------maximize the wrist flexing
Wrist at extension side-------------wrist at neutral or close to neutral at contact point
Very loose wrist in swinging-------Cannot be very loose because the wrist flexing
Flexible in stance & grip----------Strict in stance & grip
Pronation not as important--------Pronation very important

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

"Serving with a SW grip must be a reverse serve. It's impossible to do it any other way." Wow, sounds like you are the expert?! Who taught you this? Anyone with a coach certificate? Name it or point a video to prove your saying has any value.

It is very basic stuff. It's like saying you need to open the racket face to hit a lob.

Simply hold the racket in your hand with a sw forehand grip and try to have a smooth, comfortable swing with a relaxed follow through, and also make sure the stringbed faces forward when the racket is vertical. You'll find that the only way to comfortably do this is by swinging across your body from right to left. Otherwise the stringbed won't face the target.

Here's an example of a pro hitting a serve with a sw grip:

Now, of course if you don't swing your racket but just push it with a straight, stiff arm and a stiff "follow through", then it's a different story. I didn't allow for that possibility in my previous statement, sorry.

 

[BlueB]

Can you point out the "underpin" serves from my video, which frame at what time?

Typo, UNDERSPIN.

Can you show us a topspin serve with your technique? That was the original question, don't avoid it by asking something else.

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[Attila_the_gorilla]

You can use eastern forehand grip for wrist extension tennis serves too (I used it earlier but change to semi-western grip since that is my my forehand grip). You can use continental grip too. Wrist extension serves is about techniques, not forms (no restriction to grip or stance). The main differences between wrist extension serves and conventional serves are:

WETS----------------------------------Conventional
-----------------------------------------------------------
Passive arm---------------------------proactive arm
Body leading arm/hand-------------Body leading arm/hand at beginning, then arm/hand takes the lead
Minimize wrist flexing--------------maximize the wrist flexing
Wrist at extension side-------------wrist at neutral or close to neutral at contact point
Very loose wrist in swinging-------Cannot be very loose because the wrist flexing
Flexible in stance & grip----------Strict in stance & grip
Pronation not as important--------Pronation very important

ROFL.

 

[Topspin Shot]

You can use eastern forehand grip for wrist extension tennis serves too (I used it earlier but change to semi-western grip since that is my my forehand grip). You can use continental grip too. Wrist extension serves is about techniques, not forms (no restriction to grip or stance). The main differences between wrist extension serves and conventional serves are:

WETS----------------------------------Conventional
-----------------------------------------------------------
Passive arm---------------------------proactive arm
Body leading arm/hand-------------Body leading arm/hand at beginning, then arm/hand takes the lead
Minimize wrist flexing--------------maximize the wrist flexing
Wrist at extension side-------------wrist at neutral or close to neutral at contact point
Very loose wrist in swinging-------Cannot be very loose because the wrist flexing
Flexible in stance & grip----------Strict in stance & grip
Pronation not as important--------Pronation very important

Who calls their serve invention WETS? Might as well call it SOFT or PUTZ.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Who calls their serve invention WETS? Might as well call it SOFT or PUTZ.

he must be in car marketing...
http://www.oddee.com/item_93544.aspx

 

[oserver]

Typo, UNDERSPIN.

Can you show us a topspin serve with your technique? That was the original question, don't avoid it by asking something else.

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Can you see topspin in my serves? If not, what they are? Under spin, slice, side spin (to left or right), please identify by time frame in the following video.

If I don't have topspin, how can balls get into the service box with some serves hit the fence with one bounce, or you may just say EVERY SERVE IS OUT (make your life easier, I suppose.)

 

[Stretchy Man]

Your serves sometimes go in because they are slow. They barely reach the back fence before bouncing even on hard court. Why would I copy your serve rather than someone like Roger Federer?

 

[BlueB]

Can you see topspin in my serves? If not, what they are? Under spin, slice, side spin (to left or right), please identify by time frame in the following video.

If I don't have topspin, how can balls get into the service box with some serves hit the fence with one bounce, or you may just say EVERY SERVE IS OUT (make your life easier, I suppose.)

My eyes hurt when I watch that... But since you insisted, I watched it again. The only footage worth discussing is the slow motion part where the racket and ball are not lost in the print, meaning around 0:30, where you are serving from the service line. The head path, just prior to impact, is high to low and forward, with slightly open face, which can result only in underspin.
As for the rest, majority of serves are out...

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[treo]

I doubt he is hitting high to low with open face. More likely the video had the rolling shutter effect. Looks to me he is just doing a basic flat pancake serve.

 

[pabletion]

Can you see topspin in my serves? If not, what they are? Under spin, slice, side spin (to left or right)......

If I don't have topspin, how can balls get into the service box with some serves hit the fence with one bounce, or you may just say EVERY SERVE IS OUT (make your life easier, I suppose.)

Hmmmm..... Gravity plus NO PACE SERVES???

Cant believe this 'discussion' is still going on!

(Even dragged me back!!!)

 

[Topspin Shot]

Can you see topspin in my serves? If not, what they are? Under spin, slice, side spin (to left or right), please identify by time frame in the following video.

If I don't have topspin, how can balls get into the service box with some serves hit the fence with one bounce, or you may just say EVERY SERVE IS OUT (make your life easier, I suppose.)

Ok EVERY SERVE IS OUT.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Hmmmm..... Gravity plus NO PACE SERVES???

Cant believe this 'discussion' is still going on!

(Even dragged me back!!!)

we all keep checking back for 360 serves...

 

[Doc Hollidae]

Might be time to kill this thread. No one is interested in a wrist extension serve...

 

[GuyClinch]

Those serves are slow. You can hit fence with very slow serve if you hit the ball far out. <g> Ball slows down alot AFTER bounce..

We are talking about serves in the 60mph range with those ones. You are losing alot of power even for a pancake serve - starting in the open stance like that. Two major power sources - the shoulder over shoulder effect - and the upper body rotation.. You aren't maximizing any of those - or even really using it..

Again - I think you have the worst serve ever posted on talk tennis. Seriously.

 

[Digital Atheist]

Ok EVERY SERVE IS OUT.

You "sound" surprised!

 

[pabletion]

No posts on this EPIC (fail) Thread for plus 15 days, and I come to find it all the way down at page 4???

Time to SPIN things around!

BTW, @oserver, No. NO topspin spin WHATSOEVER in ANY of your serves! If any, a little bit of reverse slice spin, but mostly flat, weak-*** flat pancake serves.......

 

[SinjinCooper]

Those serves are slow. You can hit fence with very slow serve if you hit the ball far out.

When I'm really on, I can hit the fence on the fly. That's how I know I'm clocking up near 200 mph.

 

[oserver]

People asked me this: "what is the theory behind your WETS (Wrist Extension Tennis Serve)", this was my reply: "the same theory behind Federer's forehand; whatever it is". "How can you prove Federer's forehand forms and techniques can be used successfully for serves?" My reply: just rotate your arms around; also rotate your wrist (plus elbow too if you like) around to see how flexible they are, then you explain to yourself ((better prove to yourself) why your answer is 'cannot' ".

Seriously, some of you guys have been making me laugh from time to time.

 

[Morch Us]

You are a genius. Can you please get us some more 360 turn serve videos, so that we can train?

see how flexible they are

 

[oserver]

You are a genius. Can you please get us some more 360 turn serve videos, so that we can train?

Haha, first, you need to do the 180 degree ones to see if you never miss to hit the back fence, then I'll give you some tip to turn more to hit the service box; more importantly, won't get dizzy when the return ball comes.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

People asked me this: "what is the theory behind your WETS (Wrist Extension Tennis Serve)", this was my reply: "the same theory behind Federer's forehand; whatever it is". "How can you prove Federer's forehand forms and techniques can be used successfully for serves?" My reply: just rotate your arms around; also rotate your wrist (plus elbow too if you like)

And rotate your entire torso by 90 degrees too, so you end up levitating in mid-air. I'm all for levitation but the only trouble is you lose contact with the ground. The Federer forehand's rotational forces start from the ground. Can't do it during levitation.

 

[oserver]

And rotate your entire torso by 90 degrees too, so you end up levitating in mid-air. I'm all for levitation but the only trouble is you lose contact with the ground. The Federer forehand's rotational forces start from the ground. Can't do it during levitation.

Haha, you argue with me all the time but never bother the watch my videos. Go back to watch to see anything you are afraid of that happened to me?

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

Haha, you argue with me all the time but never bother the watch my videos. Go back to watch to see anything you are afraid of that happened to me?

I'm not afraid of things happening to you, just giving you obvious reasons why you can't apply forehand techniques to the serve. Hitting a forehand, you swing your racket around your body, out to the side. Obviously, for the serve, you must swing upwards. It follows then, to achieve the same orientation with relation to your trunk, you must turn your trunk sideways about 90 degrees, so you can swing the racket around it like in a forehand. Impossible to do. But even if you were able to do it and hover in the air sideways, you would not be able to generate a swing, cos no contact with the ground. And we haven't even mentioned topspin. In a forehand, topspin is generated by swinging low to high and/or slightly closing the racket face in relation to the swingpath. If you levitate sideways and replicate the same swing for a serve, that will generate reverse slice, not topspin.

 

[oserver]

I'm not afraid of things happening to you, just giving you obvious reasons why you can't apply forehand techniques to the serve. Hitting a forehand, you swing your racket around your body, out to the side. Obviously, for the serve, you must swing upwards. It follows then, to achieve the same orientation with relation to your trunk, you must turn your trunk sideways about 90 degrees, so you can swing the racket around it like in a forehand. Impossible to do. But even if you were able to do it and hover in the air sideways, you would not be able to generate a swing, cos no contact with the ground. And we haven't even mentioned topspin. In a forehand, topspin is generated by swinging low to high and/or slightly closing the racket face in relation to the swingpath. If you levitate sideways and replicate the same swing for a serve, that will generate reverse slice, not topspin.

Again, you didn't watch my videos, or at least not watch them closely. To say my serve has no topspin or they are reverse slice serves is a big distortion of facts. Another thing, low to high swing to hit the ball at certain spot happen to serve too. In conventional serve, whether is flatter first serve or second kick serve, you hit the ball by swing the racket low to high (you drop the racket head first the swing it up); high to low happens mostly in the followthrough.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

Again, you didn't watch my videos, or at least not watch them closely. To say my serve has no topspin or they are reverse slice serves is a big distortion of facts. Another thing, low to high swing to hit the ball at certain spot happen to serve too. In conventional serve, whether is flatter first serve or second kick serve, you hit the ball by swing the racket low to high (you drop the racket head first the swing it up); high to low happens mostly in the followthrough.

I'm not talking about your serve. I'm just telling you why you cannot apply forehand techniques to the serve.
Your serve is awful, but that's ok. Most rec players have bad serves. My issue is your ignorant theorising.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

My issue is your ignorant theorising.

my issue is the OP going too long without a new 360 serve video to post up.

 

[pabletion]

Again, you didn't watch my videos, or at least not watch them closely. To say my serve has no topspin or they are reverse slice serves is a big distortion of facts. Another thing, low to high swing to hit the ball at certain spot happen to serve too. In conventional serve, whether is flatter first serve or second kick serve, you hit the ball by swing the racket low to high (you drop the racket head first the swing it up); high to low happens mostly in the followthrough.

@oserver I watched this whole video, WHERE IN THE HEII are the topspin serves, according to you????

(yeah, part of me doesn't want this thread to die......)

 

[oserver]

@oserver I watched this whole video, WHERE IN THE HEII are the topspin serves, according to you????

(yeah, part of me doesn't want this thread to die......)

"part of me doesn't want this thread to die", it won't die. Just rotate your shoulders, arms and wrists to see how flexible and versatile they are, then you'll know this thread will never die. Think about it - if you admit that they are pretty flexible, then why is that you cannot serve the way Federer stroke his forehand? Why? If you still say no, rotate them again and again until you realize you can.

So, don't wait for me for another 360 degree serve video. You can do better just rotate your shoulder 360 degree back and forth until you agree 100% with me.

 

[meltphace 6]

just rotate your shoulder 360 degree back and forth until you agree 100% with me.

Torture.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

Torture.

Maybe that's his plan. Torture us all into submission with his painfully ignorant posts.

 

[pabletion]

"part of me doesn't want this thread to die", it won't die. Just rotate your shoulders, arms and wrists to see how flexible and versatile they are, then you'll know this thread will never die. Think about it - if you admit that they are pretty flexible, then why is that you cannot serve the way Federer stroke his forehand? Why? If you still say no, rotate them again and again until you realize you can.

So, don't wait for me for another 360 degree serve video. You can do better just rotate your shoulder 360 degree back and forth until you agree 100% with me.

You didnt answer my question..... I'm not asking you to post another video, I'm asking you to point out WHERE in the quoted video do you say you're serving topspin serves???

You need basically TWO things to be able to generate topspin serves:
1. A closed stance (to begin the motion AND to hit through and hold the closed stance)
2. A closed grip (or at least a continental, to generate the acceleration and racquet head path needed).

So explain to me please how do you propose to generate a topspin serve with your theories...

 

[Deleted member 23235]

So explain to me please how do you propose to generate a topspin serve with your theories...

no, don't explain, show!
please post more videos!! a 360 kick serve with an eastern or better, western grip fh... would be ideal.

 

[treo]

A new open/pancake/180/360 video has been posted!

His serve was horrible before and now it looks worse! He even writes a 6 page thesis on how revolutionary it is but it's still one ugly serve. It hurts my eyes even more to turn my head sideways to watch it.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/open-tennis-serve-techniques-gary-lou

It does have a bit of sidespin kick to the backhand...