BlueB
Legend
We all are... but for wrong reasons...I'm not him but I'm his fan
Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
Why forehand evolved to the modern style by serve remain to be tradistional
Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
oserver
Professional
This is actually a break through at the elite level. Just ask yourself this: why Thiem tried this rotational serve? He must did it for some reasons!? Bored with the conventional way of serving? Needed to have more rotation to increase the pace and spin?
Now, think about this - what is the next step?
A. Go back to his old ways since his current rotational serve looked as if he drunk a little too much the night before
!?B. Stay the current way in practice to enjoy/feel the added power, and just make a wish that it can be used in the match
C. Explore some more to make it practical in a match situation
.The option C will be very interesting indeed. Some elite players will do it, no matter he will do it or not. I bet some elite players are doing it now. Just wait and see.
How to make good balance and get ready on time? Simple - open stance. The proof has been there since the beginning of the open stance forehand. My rotational serves and 360 degree serves were proof too in a small scale, since I'm just 4.0 player/coach. The reason is very straight forward - the closed stance is only good for maximizing linear momentum generation. One can do some rotational move but there is a limit. Exceed that limit then you lose the balance, or it takes too much time to get your feet back to ready position. We saw this in the above video. That's why we need open stance or semi-open stance to increase the speed and the scale of rotation. The higher speed of rotation and the larger scale of rotation will solve the problems we saw here, doesn't matter one completes the 360 degree turn or not (I sometime do more or less a half turn). Blow is a video I made in Aug 13, 2018
Open Forehand Tennis Serve Styles
Older video at beginning of 2017
Last edited:
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
lol. The way you word that is telling. Usually one would say "I am A fan" but here you say "his fan" indicating he only has ONE fan....I'm not him but I'm his fan
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
Lol. Its a break through!! LMAO. And the serve like the ones in your vid was OUT.This is actually a break through at the elite level. Just ask yourself this: why Thiem tried this rotational serve? He must did it for some reasons!? Bored with the conventional way of serving? Needed to have more rotation to increase the pace and spin?
Now, think about this - what is the next step?
A. Go back to his old ways since his current rotational serve looked as if he drunk a little too much the night before
B. Stay the current way in practice to enjoy/feel the added power, and just make a wish that it can be used in the match
C. Explore some more to make it practical in a match situation
The option C will be very interesting indeed. Some elite players will do it, no matter he will do it or not. I bet some elite players are doing it now. Just wait and see.
How to make good balance and get ready on time? Simple - open stance. The proof has been there since the beginning of the open stance forehand. My rotational serves and 360 degree serves were proof too in a small scale, since I'm just 4.0 player/coach. The reason is very straight forward - the closed stance is only good for maximizing linear momentum generation. One can do some rotational move but there is a limit. Exceed that limit then you loose the balance, or it takes too much time to get back to ready position. We saw this in the above video. That's why we need open stance or semi-open stance to increase the speed and the scale of rotation. The higher speed of rotation and the larger scale of rotation will solve the problems we saw here, doesn't matter one completes the 360 degree turn or not. Blow is a video I made in Aug 13, 2018
Open Forehand Tennis Serve Styles
Older video at beginning of 2017
Anyhow if your 7c 720 open open omaha hut hut serve is the future, why are you not posting a vid in this thread?
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/jollys-kick-serve-challenge.632110/
Guessing you can't get any topspin to hit that serve but you are welcome to try to prove me wrong and show us all how great your serve is.
BetaServe
Professional
What are you trying to imply? You think I'm oserver? lol
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
No. I dont. I think you know he only has one fan.
oserver
Professional
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
Please read the linked thread it has specific instructions to hit this serve. Those vids do not satisfy the challenge. Not even close.
oserver
Professional
Wow, I thought you were going to go against open stance serve forever!? Your Nov 27, 2018 video truly surprised me. What's the reason you changed your heart to go for a serve that use a fully opened stance?
Now, maybe you are ready to try the rotational serve, perhaps just halfway kind, not 360 degree yet
Last edited:
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
1st off thats a great dodge. Look forward to your video because i dont think you can actually hit the serve described which is feet 1’ from the center mark and the ball has to cross the baseline 2’ outside the doubles lineWow, I thought you were going to go against open stance serve forever!? Your Nov 27, 2018 video truly surprised me. What's the reason you chanced your heart to for go a fully opened stance to serve?
Now, maybe you are ready to try the rotational serve, perhaps just halfway kind, not 360 degree yet
Here is the vid i submitted. Lets see yours
3. That vid is years old. I dont serve like that now and keep the right foot behind the left. So no embracing the open stance at all.
oserver
Professional
Are you serious? First, I was not discussion the Jolly Kick serve. I was commenting on your change of heart and the display of your open stance serve in the your Nov 27, 2018 video.
2. You are wrong to think open stance is "the right foot in front of the left". Did I even said that, or anyone who has some tennis knowledge said that. I had a article well back in April 2014 that documented what I think the open stance serves are -
Open Stance Tennis Serve Variations
3. "That vid is years old", really? It had "Jolly Challenge kick serve " on the screen and it was dated Nov 27, 2018, the first day of Jolly's Kick Serve Challenge thread. DO you need to to see a Dr. for memory problem?! You posted your "Jolly Challenge kick serve" video on the same day J011yroger started that thread as show below. Make me wonder who's idea really was for this thread.
One more, you tasted the advantages of an open stance serve, didn't you. You must practiced a lot so it became hard to hide it, or remind yourself each time not show it on a public video. Sadly, you scxxxed this time, making a contradiction to yourself big time!
Here is the cut and paste of that thread title -
Jolly's Kick Serve Challenge
- Thread starterJ011yroger
- Start dateNov 27, 2018
Next
Last edited:
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
1. That serve is not openstance. And it was old anyhow. As I said I dont serve like that anymore. Its an old vid
2.none of your analysis makes any sense. What exactly in that vid of mine is open??
3. There is a difference when a vid is shot and when its uploaded. That vid was shot years ago but was edited and uploaded recently for the challenge. The original footage is nearly 2 years old.
As for memory I still remember that you havent made a vid for Jollys challenge. I think its because your serve technique doesnt allow you to hit that serve given the conditions Jolly set: 1’ from the center has and passing the baseline 2’ outside the doubles alley.
Its the perfect chance for you to showcase your revolutionary serve but no vid. Why??
oserver
Professional
"The original footage is nearly 2 years old", if that was true, can you show the original youTube footage with the 2 years ago loading time?
Even you can backtrack and let everyone believe that video was two years back, then why you post it for the challenge as the first video. You liked it, didn't you. You were eager the show it off, forgetting you need to hide it so not to contradicting yourself then and now, right?
Remember, even two years ago, you were one of the most vocal posters who try to trash my open stance serve ideas and practices. This shows that you were/are not consistent between your mouth and your heart, very sad indeed
Don't change the subject. I'll do or not do the Jolly Kick serve challenge video if I like to do, not respond to someone's intimidation like yours for changing the subject.
oserver
Professional
Apparently you don't know what the butterfly effect theory is, do you?! The start doesn't need to be significant, nor the starter. A chaos had been here already, it just need to be intensified. And Thiem's turning around serve practices just added some dry wood onto the insignificant fire...
"In chaos theory, the butterfly effect is the sensitive dependence on initial conditions in which a small change in one state of a deterministic nonlinear system can result in large differences in a later state.[1] "
Butterfly effect theory
Last edited:
oserver
Professional
Why didn't you see the backtrack of one poster's videos and explanations to make the story whole? Is that something that "Someone should really put some time into studying people like" that poster?
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
this is some slippery slope reasoning and explains how your serve got WETS.
If you read that Kick Serve Challenge thread you will see that I was posting vids that were already made. Why shoot a new one if off the shelf content will suffice. The 1st vid was denied because I was too far from the hash mark and there was no target at the baseline. The one in question I took from 2 years ago and that was denied too because I was too far away from the center mark. So yes I was eager to win the contest using old vid. It didnt happen so I shot a new vid.
Dude you crack me up nothing in that vid or serve is open. There is no contradiciton. And for the record even if you are right and in your bizarro world that was some how open, its very consistent because I don;t serve like that now. The last thing I would ever want to do is serve like your vids.
And how dare you accuse me of being deceptive. Here is the original vid from almost 2 years ago. That serve is at 4:24:
Remember, even two years ago, you were one of the most vocal posters who try to trash my open stance serve ideas and practices. This shows that you were/are not consistent between your mouth and your heart, very sad indeed
Don't change the subject. I'll do or not do the Jolly Kick serve challenge video if I like to do, not respond to someone's intimidation like yours for changing the subject.
I am totally consistent. Your serve concepts are wrong and don't work. That has remained consistent. My mouth has said that and my heart especially feels that.
And you are dodging the challenge. The only reason you don't produce a vid is because your technique wont allow you to hit that serve. If you could you would. It would go along way to proving your concept....if you can hit that serve. No one thinks you can. So you have to take up the challenge or the whole world will know how wrong you have been...
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
one can't see what isnt there. Once again you were wrong....
oserver
Professional
Even you can backtrack and let everyone believe that video was two years back, then why you post it for the challenge as the first video. You liked it, didn't you. You were eager the show it off, forgetting you need to hide it so not to contradicting yourself then and now, right?
You tried to sidestep to answer my question directly.
1. If you didn't like your old video with the open stance serve, why you posted it. Whether it was accepted for the challenge or not is irrelevant.
2. You liked your old open stance serve but didn't realized that it was an open stance serve until I spotted it, true?
3. You were practicing open stance serve two years ago as you said, why you openly trash the open stance serve form that time openly and vigorously even many of nay sayers left the forum and never post anything again? Where were your mouth and heart two years ago?
oserver
Professional
So many posters are 360 serve funs and and won't tolerate anything other than 3C serves.
If someone can do 360 serves with a closed stance, that will be real fun to watch. Anyone? I like to make some laughters too
Above was my post on Aug 2, 2018
Ok, I'm not laughing at Thiem in in any negative way; I like to give him an applause. He had the gut to explore things other regard as some kind of taboo. I was just joking to say that he looked as if he drank a little to much the night before.
In sport, the form usually take precedence of technique or physical abilities. If the form is wrong, no matter how you twist the technique or how good your shape is physically, you just cannot produce practical good looking act like a tennis stroke. We need technique to conform with the form. In the above example, Thiem used classic closed stance form to serve, but tried to mix it with too much rotational movement. So the conformation is not there no matter how good his physical ability is. A closed stance form for serve is good for maximizing the linear momentum generation, so the rotational momentum generation has to be compromised. If he like to generate that much rotational momentum, he need to use open stance, which is good for maximizing the rotational momentum generation, just like the case of modern open stance forehand. This is the reason I named my 3O serves the Forehand Serve, because the 3O all start with an O (open stance, open grip and open wrist so all things are conforming). One needs consistency or conformation between a form with a suitable technique. It took me a while to realize this back in 2014 when I change to open stance serve but still use closed grip (continental grip) for many months. It took me almost three years to realize I need to use the open wrist (the forehand wrist) to serve (Wrist Extension Tennis Serve, or WETS).
Last edited:
Stretchy Man
Professional
Now, think about this - what is the next step?
A. Go back to his old ways since his current rotational serve looked as if he drunk a little too much the night before
B. Stay the current way in practice to enjoy/feel the added power, and just make a wish that it can be used in the match
C. Explore some more to make it practical in a match situation
Do you have any videos of this "added power" you talk about Gary? Have you thought about contacting Gunter Bresnik?
BlueB
Legend
Why you practiced them only 30 times? I thought more would be required to perfect something new? Maybe do about 3000 at least?
Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
KG32
Rookie
You tried to look smart by throwing some theory into the mix, but unfortunately you chose one that’s overused by people like you who don’t even understand what it means and try to apply it where it doesn’t even belong. Don’t worry, it’s one of the most common misconceptions, or rather theories wrongly used in discussion in other fields. Prof Richard Eykholt once gave some pretty good summary on this, had to dig it up but I hope it’s an accurate quote:
Since you chose an invalid argument you don’t even understand, I don’t feel obligated to try to debunk what you possibly had on your mind until you make another attempt.
oserver
Professional
If you had watched my videos three four years ago then you can conclude yourself in terms of "added power".
Now I'm working on more added spin using 3O (Open stance, Open grip, Open Wrist) serve. Here is the video. Notice that some of the topspin serves were one bouncers to the curtain; matching some of my flat serves three four years ago, and some serves can bounce 5 feet at the baseline.
oserver
Professional
Ok, you couldn't tell the O is not 0. 3O serve is my term to define the new serve form and technique in contrast to the 3C serve form and technique. Please read this article so you know what I have been advocating -
Forehand Serve (Tennis)
oserver
Professional
In butterfly effect theory, both starting event and the starter can be insignificant, but in order to create a much bigger event, there need to be a chaos at some point. Not every insignificant starting event or start can induce the chaos, otherwise we'll get too many hurricanes from butterfly flops from Brazil. A chaos is very hard to create. You can try to create one yourself, whatever subject you like to do.
My open tennis serve endeavor has some characteristic of insignificances that may lead to some chaos in the tennis world. It will take years to conclude whether it is or is not. We just need to wait and see.
rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
My head hurts. All this theory and posting and oserver still can't serve years later.
oserver
Professional
Yeah, headache from impatience
. I'm sorry to say that the sport form changes take decades, not years, unfortunately.
Stretchy Man
Professional
That's the slowest "4.0" serve I have ever seen. A little bizarre to be giving serving tips to Dominic Thiem don't you think?
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
Where do you get this stuff. Did you not read my replies or maybe you couldnt understand them? You saw, that vid was taken from nearly two year old footage and you are still trying to make up some backtrack story. You were the one who was wrong saying it was a recent vid and now you are still saying I somehow back tracked and there was a contradiction. Ha. You are a crack up Gary. Cant believe you cant understand this easy stuff. Its pretty easy to see I grabbed the old video and edited just that serve, slowed it down and submitted it for the challenge.
1. Where are you getting like or didnt like that vid? I simply saw a challenge post and thought I had an existing video that would satisfy the challenge and I could get an easy prize. So its very relevant whether it was accepted or not. Now maybe you are confusing the video with the serve. That serve in that video, no I did not like it and have spent years changing it. ITs better now than it has been in 20 years and is evolving all the time. Especially because I am doing the complete opposite of what you are saying.
2. Its not an open stance serve. Nothing about it is open stance. And no I have hours of vids changing that serve. Went from that to platform and then back to pinpoint but the right foot is behind the left instead of in front now.
3. No I wasnt because thats not open stance. Anyhow I changed it because it was a sucky serve...
Speaking of which where is your video for the Jolly Kick serve challange? You play indoors so thats not an excuse. If you can't hit that serve because you technique can't hit it just say so. We all know it anyhow. Given all the vids you post all the time you would think you would have already posted one. But you havent so there is only one conclusion....you can't do it.
So let me guess. More dodge posts coming my way because the 3O serve is a 3.0 serve and can't produce the RHS or topspin needed to hit the Jolly Challenge serve....
oserver
Professional
That's the slowest "4.0" serve I have ever seen. A little bizarre to be giving serving tips to Dominic Thiem don't you think?
My Estimated Dynamic Rating by TennisRecord site is 3.8647 on 11/19/2018. It is in the high range of a computer rated 4.0 -
http://www.tennisrecord.com/adult/profile.aspx?playername=Gary Lou
You just don't know how to judge
Speaking about qualification, I know my playing level is a way lower than Thiem, but speaking about the rotational serves, I have practiced four years now, more than anyone I know personally and anyone on TW forums. I wrote a few papers and produced many videos in discussing this specific sport form and techniques. Thiem just started the experiment. Also, I had USPTA coaching certificate 8 years ago. So who is more qualified to talk in this subject?
Last edited:
oserver
Professional
"2. Its not an open stance serve. Nothing about it is open stance. And no I have hours of vids changing that serve. Went from that to platform and then back to pinpoint but the right foot is behind the left instead of in front now."
Haha, now you had it in writing: "Its not an open stance serve." So what it is?
A. A pinpoint serve?
B. A close stance serve?
C. A Shroud serve invention? If so, give it a name, please!
Stretchy Man
Professional
My Estimated Dynamic Rating by TennisRecord site is 3.8647 on 11/19/2018. It is in the high range of a computer rated 4.0 -
http://www.tennisrecord.com/adult/profile.aspx?playername=Gary Lou
You just don't know how to judge
Nothing to do with judgement. Your serve really is the slowest 4.0 serve I have ever seen but don't take my word for it. Let's look at the facts:
Your winning percentage has been steadily declining every year since you started your serving experiments. Your results back up what is already clear to everyone who has watched your videos.
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
There are mostly 2 stances on the serve, pinpoint and platform. Your assumption that somehow the groundstoke stances and mechanics apply to the serve is what is messing you up here. They dont apply so there is nothing open about that serve.
So the answer is A. Pinpoint though a flawed one.
The 3rd one would be a middleground like what Roddick used. Where its a narrow platform.
Anyhow we will never agree on this. But hey its your reputation if you want to continue to dodge the serve challenge. We can agree that you cant pass the challenge. If you could there would be a vid. The challenge is a whole nother month. So make a video gary.
Can your technique pass that serve challenge??
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
Its the vids he cant make that are telling too.Nothing to do with judgement. Your serve really is the slowest 4.0 serve I have ever seen but don't take my word for it. Let's look at the facts:
Your winning percentage has been steadily declining every year since you started your serving experiments. Your results back up what is already clear to everyone who has watched your videos.
KG32
Rookie
It's hard to reply since you didn't understand my post as well.
In less complicated words - the butterfly effect has nothing to do with what you tried to say.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
Unless it's the same guy the OP should join forces with ext2hander to create a totally new paradigm for teaching tennis
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/extended-two-hand-backhand.379380/
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/extended-two-hand-backhand.379380/
FiReFTW
Legend
Is that in slow motion?
Those serves look pretty decent if its 2x slow motion, what are they like 75mph?
oserver
Professional
Nothing to do with judgement. Your serve really is the slowest 4.0 serve I have ever seen but don't take my word for it. Let's look at the facts:
Your winning percentage has been steadily declining every year since you started your serving experiments. Your results back up what is already clear to everyone who has watched your videos.
Most top elite payers' winning percentage will steadily declining every year past thirty or so, Federer, Nadal and others a very few who did exceptional well to maintain their sharpness past thirty. At my retirement age, I'm pretty happy that I can still play at 4.0 level and rated as above average 4.0.
I don't know how old you are or what is your USTA rating. Can you share it so we can judge who well you maintain your playing ability.
oserver
Professional
Both pin-point stance and platform stance server's feet are roughly lining up with the ball path at loading stage, you feet is almost parallel to net, or perpendicular to the ball path, like a open stance forehand. Don't fool yourself by saying "So the answer is A. Pinpoint though a flawed one." Pin-point stance starts with the feet apart then back foot step forward behind and close to the front feet. Look at how wide open your feet are? Are you have\ing a flawed mind thinking that some clever words can fool everyone around.
Stretchy Man
Professional
You have no evidence that your "open wets" serve has any benefit at all. Gary, mate, why are you doing this?
oserver
Professional
Haha, may I ask: why were you just following others, just trying hard to post something interest, instead creating something interesting for others to follow?
Stretchy Man
Professional
I have an interest in psychology and I find it fascinating that you seem oblivious to your weaknesses whether they be your tennis ability, singing, or written English. Don't get me wrong, we all have weaknesses - I can't sing, my serve also sucks, and my Japanese is poor. We have a lot in common. However I would never dare to make tennis coaching and singing videos, write articles on the internet without proof reading by a native speaker, or think I could coach Dominic Thiem.
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
As I said we will never agree because you think that the fh somehow applies to the serve. It doesnt. One example is that you say the "server's feet are roughly lining up with the ball path at loading stage," however the ball path on the serve is very different than a forehand. The ball path is either stationary or slightly coming down from right to left. So its a vertical incoming ball path not a horizontal. So pretty much any foot position is perpendicular to the incoming ball. Its why no coach talks about open or closed in reference to the serve. IMHO the big thing you are missing and a lot of rec players miss is that the serve is primarily hit UP at an angle into the court. Not down and horizontally. Thats why the forehand doesnt apply to the serve stances and no one but Gary calls serve stances open or closed, etc.
Anyhow it doesnt matter. If you want to say I hit openstance and somehow think my head and my heart were at odds and you want to think all kind of things, go ahead. All I can tell you is that no matter what you call that footwork I knew it was not efficient. I worked hard to change it precisely because hitting that way and even more with the nipples to the net as you advocate is just a bad way to serve.. If you need to think you taught me something go ahead.
Now can your serve pass the Jolly Challenge? Where is the video? Why is your technique incapable of passing that test?
oserver
Professional
Practice wide topspin serves to land the ball as close to the net as possible.
3Os - ( Open Stance, Open Grip, and Open Wrist/Passive Arm )
Stance ranges from platform to semi-open stance and open stance.
Grip - my forehand grip between eastern forehand and semi-western grip.
I didn't use an active arm to serve and didn't try to swing the arm fast. I tried to have a very loose wrist and let arm to be passive (body leading the arm, not the opposite). The goal is to let the body to contribute more in pace and spin generation and minimize arm's contribution.
You don't need to use continental grip nor pronation to do it.
Last edited:
oserver
Professional
Here is the video:
And I passed the Jolly Challenge test - Jolly Challenge Thread
What would you say now @Shroud ?
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
Congrats man. DIdnt think you could do it. Would like to see more umph and some more kick off the court but good job winning the jolly prize.
oserver
Professional
How about we do the knee down version using the current Jolly Challenge rules as I suggest J011yroger.
Here is a video I did in 2014 -
Hmgraphite1
Hall of Fame
Great pronation, didn't realize this was possible with flapjack grip. Some of those really close to net, prob unreturnable if opponent standing way back.
oserver
Professional
A video I did four years ago on May 30, 2014. Pretty crazy, isn't it? The title is "Crazy Tennis Serve"
. I was wondering whether I can use the serve in real games so I did it.Like I said, with Thiem's agility, an open stance will solve his slow turning problem. A closed stance geared mostly for linear momentum generation is not good for angular momentum generating move. Techniques need to conform with the form to solve the problem of awkwardness.
Some will say that a 4.0 coach should shut his mouth, not to comment on a 7.0 level elite player's move. But just for the study time and practice time I spend on this subject, I think I earned the right to say something about it.
